On 11/22/07, Mark Burton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Navel gazing?
Yes, as the initator of this string I've been pretty puzzled by the
correspondence.  I thought I'd posted something on the dilemma between a
preventative (or better liberatory) approach and the problem of actually
existing suffering.   It reminded me of the moment when Che Guevara is
said to have had to choose between jettisoning his medical bag and his
ammunition during the Cuban revolutionary war.
The discussion, however seems to have turned inward to the intrapsychic.

Mark

> "Also, even if it's true that we can never fully see beyond our own
> interests, this doesn't mean that we can't, in good faith, try to
> minimize the extent to which our observations about the world are
> influenced by our own particular perspectives and needs. When we do
> this, I think that we can end up with an account of how the world works
> that can be more useful and compelling than anything offered by
> post-modernist navel gazing."
>
> I'm torn about responding to this because the current discusion seems the
> height of navel gazing. So, to be brief - why "try and see beyond our own
> particular perspectives and needs"? In the Problems of Philosophy (Christ,
> now I'm quoting the great and good) Russell said the point of philosophy
> was
> to provide a questioning stance to all attempts by science to answer
> practical questions. Thus, nuclear scientists might split the atom but it
> was up to philosphers to ask if this was a good thing. He explicitly
> ranked
> psychology as a science, albeit a young one. So my question would be, "To
> whom, exactly, is a deconstructed account of the type you suggest, useful
> and compelling?" If the answer is all of us, then how do such accounts
> mesh - or are they just endlessly evolved by this kind of discussion?
> BTW, my navel is in fine fettle due to endless sit ups.
> Craig
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Moloney Paul" < [log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 6:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation and suffering
>
>
> Surely, Craig, no one can completely "step outside of [their] self
> interest" completely. And I'm not sure that Bourdieu ever claimed to be
> doing this. As far as I'm aware, he always acknowledged that it was only
> possible for him to develop his ideas because he occupied a relatively
> privileged academic niche, which afforded him the necessary economic and
> cultural capital, and hence personal security.
>
> Also, even if it's true that we can never fully see beyond our own
> interests, this doesn't mean that we can't, in good faith, try to
> minimize the extent to which our observations about the world are
> influenced by our own particular perspectives and needs. When we do
> this, I think that we can end up with an account of how the world works
> that can be more useful and compelling than anything offered by
> post-modernist navel gazing.
>
> Paul
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Newnes
> Sent: 21 November 2007 17:34
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation and
> suffering
>
> John, I understand, though how you seem to know how "we" see things
> (sense
> data, whatever) is beyond me. Likewise Bourdieu and all those fine folk
> who
> can step outside self interest.
> Craig
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Cromby" < [log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 3:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation and
> suffering
>
>
> I mean that how we see the world is not just a matter of visual,
> cognitive
> processing. That seeing is a body activity, not a disembodied cognitive
> process, and the world we see is not simply and objectively out there.
> The
> world we see is always pre-reflectively shaped by regimes and patterns
> of
> socialisation acquired in interaction and operating through the body.
> And
> these regimes and patterns are modally related to variables such as
> class
> and gender. So I put 'see' in scare quotes, not because there isn't a
> world
> that we perceive, but because 'seeing' is too readily misconceived as
> just
> cognitive information processing.
>
> J.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
> [mailto: [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Newnes
> Sent: 21 November 2007 15:16
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: on 'prevention', liberation and suffering
>
> 'see'
>
> As you've put the word see in quote marks I don't even know what you
> mean by
> it - so assuming you do know what you mean, we see the world differently
> -
> or is it "see"?
> C
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Cromby" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: < [log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 10:56 AM
> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation and
> suffering
>
>
>>I think there's little doubt that people in different social positions
>>'see' the world somewhat differently: Bourdieu makes this clear with
>>respect to class, as do Iris Marion Young and Sandra Harding with
> respect
>>to gender. Within psychology, Holzkamp's notion of subjective
> possibility
>>spaces similarly makes this explicit, and for good materialist reasons
> too.
>>
>> The two more substantive and related issues may be:
>> (1) whether the visuospatial metaphor of 'seeing' is the most
> appropriate
>> one, or whether in fact it actually elides and obscures the
> fundamentally
>> embodied character of individual's relation to their social world. If
> a
>> more embodied notion of social relations is adopted, the cognitivist
>> implications of simply 'seeing' are avoided; the fact that people
>> sometimes act against their own 'objective' self-interest (they don't
>> 'see' the real cause of their problems) is partialy explained; and
>> something of the intransigence and enduring character of distress is
>> potentially explained, as perhaps are some of the inconsistencies
>> associated with the various forms of intervention typically offered.
>> (2) moving away from the visuospatial metaphor also makes it clear
> that
>> individuals don't simply have a clear choice with regard to how they
> 'see'
>> the world; this also speaks to the inconsistent efficacy of
> therapeutic
>> interventions, whilst helping us professionals to 'see' that
> constructing
>> people's frequent failure to 'see' the world as we do as 'resistance'
> or
>> 'non-compliance' is not only unhelpful but also incorrect.
>>
>> J.
>>
>>
>> Craig Newnes wrote:
>>> I suppose the question is, "How would we know we see the world
>>> differently?"
>>> Craig
>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>   From: richard pemberton To: [log in to unmask] Sent:
>>> Wednesday, November 21, 2007 8:06 AM
>>>   Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation and
>>> suffering
>>>
>>>
>>>   the notion of naive realism sounds cute but surely kelly was right
> in
>>> his constructive alternativism - I dont understand why we are
> oppressed
>>> by the way we see the world - this sounds very beckian - different
>>> prevaling world views or discourses have different utilities and
>>> differing explanations of identity suffering or consciousness - class
> or
>>> other? richard
>>>
>>>    On 11/20/07, Penny Priest < [log in to unmask]> wrote: Yes I
> think
>>> so sort of
>>>       ----- Original Message -----
>>>       From: David Fryer To: [log in to unmask] Sent:
>>> Tuesday, November 20, 2007 11:04 PM
>>>       Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation and
>>> suffering
>>>
>>>        Thanks Penny . . . perhaps, then, neither of us is convinced
> that
>>> 'how we see things' and 'how things are' are so separate and
> different
>>> ... not because we think people accurately see things 'as they are' (
> a
>>> sort of naive realist perceptual account) but because 'what there
> is',
>>> the social world, is not only 'outside' but also 'inside', that we
> are
>>> increasingly oppressively 'governed' through the way in which we
>>> understand ourselves as part of the social world and that this
> oppression
>>> is achieved in part through dominant oppressive discourses which it
> does
>>> not make sense to consider as outside or inside or as aspects of the
> way
>>> 'the world is' or the way 'the world is perceived'?
>>> David
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
>>>       From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of
>>> Penny Priest
>>>       Sent: Tue 11/20/2007 22:23
>>>       To: [log in to unmask]
>>>       Subject: Re: on 'prevention', liberation and suffering
>>>
>>>        Regarding this debate, I refer people back to the special
> issue in
>>> Clinical Psychology Forum, written by the Midlands Psychology Group.
> This
>>> can be found at: www.midpsy.freeuk.com
>>>       At this particular point, I agree most with David Fryer.
>>>       Penny
>>>         ----- Original Message -----
>>>         From: Gopfert, Michael To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent:
>>> Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:37 PM
>>>         Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation
> and
>>> suffering
>>>
>>>          I think that our capacity to de-construct (how we see
> things) as
>>> well as to construct, our need to have truths and look beyond is all
> part
>>> of the same human condition which enables abstract thinking and
>>> capitalism. The evolution of money ( i.e. the bedrock of 'capitalism'
> and
>>> the emergence of philosophy (the basis of community psychology,
> Marxism
>>> etc. in their embryonic form) are roughly parallel processes
>>> historically.
>>>
>>>         What is important to recognise is that our belief in the
>>> therapies is probably slightly grandiose though they do help a bit
> and
>>> for a short while and  on some occasions a lot. However, the
> differences
>>> are like minor variations in my mind, more of the importance of
> choosing
>>> the right size screwdriver for the job , so it fits the task. Hope
> this
>>> is a helpful perspective.
>>>
>>>         Michael
>>>
>>>         From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List [mailto:
>>> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Fryer
>>>         Sent: 20 November 2007 21:13
>>>         To: [log in to unmask]
>>>         Subject: Re: on 'prevention', liberation and suffering
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         A key issue seems (to me) to be the (problematic) assumption
> that
>>> 'how we see things' and 'how things are' are separate and different.
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>         From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf
> of
>>> McGowan John (Sussex Partnership Trust)
>>>         Sent: Tue 11/20/2007 20:42
>>>         To: [log in to unmask]
>>>         Subject: Re: on 'prevention', liberation and suffering Can't
> help
>>> feeling you may be reading too much into non-attatchment.
>>>         While I find CBT a bit lightweight compared to the emptiness
> of
>>> the five
>>>         skandas, the Buddha and Beck were/are both unified by a a
> belief
>>> that it is how you see things that is the cause of suffering. And
>>> actually they
>>>         both have a point. While you can trumpet Beck as a running
> dog of
>>>         capitalism (though that leaves him sounding like a villan
> which
>>> is
>>>         pretty unfair), suffering is (sometimes) about how we see
> things.
>>> Of course if that's ALL you do then you might be open to the charge
> of,
>>>         what was it? "exploiting Capitalist notions of change".
>>>
>>>         Any form of Buddhism I've encountered doesn't deny that life
> and
>>> its injustices and sufferings may lead to unavoidable pain (no matter
> how
>>>         enlightened you become) it's the constructs that cause the
>>> suffering.
>>>         Are therapy and therapists so engaged. Well the ones on this
> list
>>> seem to be. The point I was trying to make though (and to bring my
>>> meandering
>>>         back to community psychology) is that the original quote
> outlines
>>>         something that for me is actually a dilemma. Both the way one
>>> sees and
>>>         the world itself are both important. The fact that I spend
> much
>>> of my
>>>         time on the former no more make me a purveyor of bogus
>>>         techno-individualism than the burger I had for lunch makes me
> a
>>>         murderer.
>>>
>>>         Though that may depend on how you see it of course. John
>>>
>>>         -----Original Message-----
>>>         From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
>>>         [ mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig
>>> Newnes
>>>         Sent: 20 November 2007 15:07
>>>         To: [log in to unmask]
>>>         Subject: Re: on 'prevention', liberation and suffering
>>>
>>>         Therapists (CBT and all others really) are in the same
>>>         business as the Buddha as they are all about trying to change
>>> meanings or our view of things.
>>>
>>>         I've seen some rubbish in my time... Surely the point is to
> let
>>> go of
>>>         ALL
>>>         attachment, including attachment to ideas like "trying to
> change
>>>         meanings".
>>>         Beck and others are simply exploiting Capitalist notions of
>>> change, well being, etc. This is put in fancy language so therapists
> can
>>> persuade
>>>         themselves that change is possible especially through
>>>         techno-individualism
>>>         which they can charge for. But if these therapists were
>>> Buddhists - and had
>>>         Beck not been so interested in making money - they would
> spend
>>> far more
>>>         time
>>>         just keeping still.
>>>         Craig
>>>         ----- Original Message -----
>>>         From: "McGowan John (Sussex Partnership Trust)"
>>>         < [log in to unmask]>
>>>         To: < [log in to unmask] >
>>>         Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 11:53 AM
>>>         Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation
> and
>>>         suffering
>>>
>>>
>>>         It's a very interesting point and of course one where you are
> not
>>> the first there as it is addressed in the first of the Four Noble
> Truths
>>> of
>>>         Buddhism (Life is suffering). The The Buddhist framework
>>> obviously goes
>>>         on to say that suffering as caused by attatchment  and talks
>>> about ways that releif can be obtained.
>>>
>>>         In many ways (and this is hardly an original thought) this
> makes
>>> it
>>>         sound as if the Buddha studied under Beck. Thus suffering
> (rather
>>> less
>>>         poetically) is caused by maladaptive coping mechanisms and
>>> dysfunctional assumptions. Therapists (CBT and all others really) are
> in
>>> the same
>>>         business as the Buddha as they are all about trying to change
>>> meanings
>>>         or our view of things.
>>>
>>>         The reason for thie religious waffle (and I do hate bringing
>>> relegion into things) is really just to point out that this is a very
> old
>>> dliemma
>>>         raised by the quote below and one which unfortunately doesn't
>>> seem to
>>>         get any easier for sucessive generations. Its just the both
> parts
>>> being true that seems to scupper me!
>>>
>>>         John McGowan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         -----Original Message-----
>>>         From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
>>>         [ mailto: [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig
>>> Newnes
>>>         Sent: 19 November 2007 10:20
>>>         To: [log in to unmask]
>>>         Subject: Re: on 'prevention', liberation and suffering
>>>
>>>         Surely the "cause" of suffering is being alive.
>>>         Craig
>>>         ----- Original Message -----
>>>         From: "Mark Burton" < [log in to unmask]>
>>>         To: < [log in to unmask]>
>>>         Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 1:01 PM
>>>         Subject: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation and
>>> suffering
>>>
>>>
>>>         I came across this quotable insight.....
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         "Anyone working for a saner world will, from time to time, be
>>> faced with
>>>         the choice of caring for present suffering or working to
> remove
>>> the
>>>         cause
>>>         of suffering. The choice is always painful. More so because
> we
>>> know that a
>>>         preoccupation with present suffering-of which there is
> apparently
>>> an
>>>         inexhaustible supply-is a means of social control. We all
> know
>>> people
>>>         who
>>>         have become so involved in caring for present suffering that
> they
>>> have not
>>>         time and eventually no optimism for the radical changes which
>>> would
>>>         remove
>>>         the source of the problem."
>>>
>>>
>>>         from   http://www.mickeyz.net/
>>>
>>>         ___________________________________
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>>
>> --
>> ********************************************************
>> John Cromby
>> Department of Human Sciences
>> Loughborough University
>> Loughborough, Leics
>> LE11 3TU England
>> Tel: 01509 223000
>> Email: [log in to unmask]
>> Personal webpage: http://www-staff.lboro.ac.uk/~hujc4/
>> Co-Editor, "Subjectivity": www.palgrave-journals.com/sub
>> ********************************************************
>>
>> ___________________________________
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