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I guess the navel is the point where individualism started for all of us. Richard On 11/22/07, Mark Burton <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Navel gazing? > Yes, as the initator of this string I've been pretty puzzled by the > correspondence. I thought I'd posted something on the dilemma between a > preventative (or better liberatory) approach and the problem of actually > existing suffering. It reminded me of the moment when Che Guevara is > said to have had to choose between jettisoning his medical bag and his > ammunition during the Cuban revolutionary war. > The discussion, however seems to have turned inward to the intrapsychic. > > Mark > > > > "Also, even if it's true that we can never fully see beyond our own > > interests, this doesn't mean that we can't, in good faith, try to > > minimize the extent to which our observations about the world are > > influenced by our own particular perspectives and needs. When we do > > this, I think that we can end up with an account of how the world works > > that can be more useful and compelling than anything offered by > > post-modernist navel gazing." > > > > I'm torn about responding to this because the current discusion seems > the > > height of navel gazing. So, to be brief - why "try and see beyond our > own > > particular perspectives and needs"? In the Problems of Philosophy > (Christ, > > now I'm quoting the great and good) Russell said the point of philosophy > > was > > to provide a questioning stance to all attempts by science to answer > > practical questions. Thus, nuclear scientists might split the atom but > it > > was up to philosphers to ask if this was a good thing. He explicitly > > ranked > > psychology as a science, albeit a young one. So my question would be, > "To > > whom, exactly, is a deconstructed account of the type you suggest, > useful > > and compelling?" If the answer is all of us, then how do such accounts > > mesh - or are they just endlessly evolved by this kind of discussion? > > BTW, my navel is in fine fettle due to endless sit ups. > > Craig > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Moloney Paul" <[log in to unmask]> > > To: <[log in to unmask]> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 6:27 PM > > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation and > suffering > > > > > > Surely, Craig, no one can completely "step outside of [their] self > > interest" completely. And I'm not sure that Bourdieu ever claimed to be > > doing this. As far as I'm aware, he always acknowledged that it was only > > possible for him to develop his ideas because he occupied a relatively > > privileged academic niche, which afforded him the necessary economic and > > cultural capital, and hence personal security. > > > > Also, even if it's true that we can never fully see beyond our own > > interests, this doesn't mean that we can't, in good faith, try to > > minimize the extent to which our observations about the world are > > influenced by our own particular perspectives and needs. When we do > > this, I think that we can end up with an account of how the world works > > that can be more useful and compelling than anything offered by > > post-modernist navel gazing. > > > > Paul > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Newnes > > Sent: 21 November 2007 17:34 > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation and > > suffering > > > > John, I understand, though how you seem to know how "we" see things > > (sense > > data, whatever) is beyond me. Likewise Bourdieu and all those fine folk > > who > > can step outside self interest. > > Craig > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "John Cromby" <[log in to unmask]> > > To: <[log in to unmask]> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 3:32 PM > > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation and > > suffering > > > > > > I mean that how we see the world is not just a matter of visual, > > cognitive > > processing. That seeing is a body activity, not a disembodied cognitive > > process, and the world we see is not simply and objectively out there. > > The > > world we see is always pre-reflectively shaped by regimes and patterns > > of > > socialisation acquired in interaction and operating through the body. > > And > > these regimes and patterns are modally related to variables such as > > class > > and gender. So I put 'see' in scare quotes, not because there isn't a > > world > > that we perceive, but because 'seeing' is too readily misconceived as > > just > > cognitive information processing. > > > > J. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Newnes > > Sent: 21 November 2007 15:16 > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: on 'prevention', liberation and suffering > > > > 'see' > > > > As you've put the word see in quote marks I don't even know what you > > mean by > > it - so assuming you do know what you mean, we see the world differently > > - > > or is it "see"? > > C > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "John Cromby" <[log in to unmask]> > > To: <[log in to unmask]> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 10:56 AM > > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation and > > suffering > > > > > >>I think there's little doubt that people in different social positions > >>'see' the world somewhat differently: Bourdieu makes this clear with > >>respect to class, as do Iris Marion Young and Sandra Harding with > > respect > >>to gender. Within psychology, Holzkamp's notion of subjective > > possibility > >>spaces similarly makes this explicit, and for good materialist reasons > > too. > >> > >> The two more substantive and related issues may be: > >> (1) whether the visuospatial metaphor of 'seeing' is the most > > appropriate > >> one, or whether in fact it actually elides and obscures the > > fundamentally > >> embodied character of individual's relation to their social world. If > > a > >> more embodied notion of social relations is adopted, the cognitivist > >> implications of simply 'seeing' are avoided; the fact that people > >> sometimes act against their own 'objective' self-interest (they don't > >> 'see' the real cause of their problems) is partialy explained; and > >> something of the intransigence and enduring character of distress is > >> potentially explained, as perhaps are some of the inconsistencies > >> associated with the various forms of intervention typically offered. > >> (2) moving away from the visuospatial metaphor also makes it clear > > that > >> individuals don't simply have a clear choice with regard to how they > > 'see' > >> the world; this also speaks to the inconsistent efficacy of > > therapeutic > >> interventions, whilst helping us professionals to 'see' that > > constructing > >> people's frequent failure to 'see' the world as we do as 'resistance' > > or > >> 'non-compliance' is not only unhelpful but also incorrect. > >> > >> J. > >> > >> > >> Craig Newnes wrote: > >>> I suppose the question is, "How would we know we see the world > >>> differently?" > >>> Craig > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: richard pemberton To: [log in to unmask] Sent: > >>> Wednesday, November 21, 2007 8:06 AM > >>> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation and > >>> suffering > >>> > >>> > >>> the notion of naive realism sounds cute but surely kelly was right > > in > >>> his constructive alternativism - I dont understand why we are > > oppressed > >>> by the way we see the world - this sounds very beckian - different > >>> prevaling world views or discourses have different utilities and > >>> differing explanations of identity suffering or consciousness - class > > or > >>> other? richard > >>> > >>> On 11/20/07, Penny Priest <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Yes I > > think > >>> so sort of > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: David Fryer To: [log in to unmask] Sent: > >>> Tuesday, November 20, 2007 11:04 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation and > >>> suffering > >>> > >>> Thanks Penny . . . perhaps, then, neither of us is convinced > > that > >>> 'how we see things' and 'how things are' are so separate and > > different > >>> ... not because we think people accurately see things 'as they are' ( > > a > >>> sort of naive realist perceptual account) but because 'what there > > is', > >>> the social world, is not only 'outside' but also 'inside', that we > > are > >>> increasingly oppressively 'governed' through the way in which we > >>> understand ourselves as part of the social world and that this > > oppression > >>> is achieved in part through dominant oppressive discourses which it > > does > >>> not make sense to consider as outside or inside or as aspects of the > > way > >>> 'the world is' or the way 'the world is perceived'? > >>> David > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > -- > >>> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of > >>> Penny Priest > >>> Sent: Tue 11/20/2007 22:23 > >>> To: [log in to unmask] > >>> Subject: Re: on 'prevention', liberation and suffering > >>> > >>> Regarding this debate, I refer people back to the special > > issue in > >>> Clinical Psychology Forum, written by the Midlands Psychology Group. > > This > >>> can be found at: www.midpsy.freeuk.com > >>> At this particular point, I agree most with David Fryer. > >>> Penny > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: Gopfert, Michael To: [log in to unmask] > > Sent: > >>> Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:37 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation > > and > >>> suffering > >>> > >>> I think that our capacity to de-construct (how we see > > things) as > >>> well as to construct, our need to have truths and look beyond is all > > part > >>> of the same human condition which enables abstract thinking and > >>> capitalism. The evolution of money ( i.e. the bedrock of 'capitalism' > > and > >>> the emergence of philosophy (the basis of community psychology, > > Marxism > >>> etc. in their embryonic form) are roughly parallel processes > >>> historically. > >>> > >>> What is important to recognise is that our belief in the > >>> therapies is probably slightly grandiose though they do help a bit > > and > >>> for a short while and on some occasions a lot. However, the > > differences > >>> are like minor variations in my mind, more of the importance of > > choosing > >>> the right size screwdriver for the job , so it fits the task. Hope > > this > >>> is a helpful perspective. > >>> > >>> Michael > >>> > >>> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List [mailto: > >>> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Fryer > >>> Sent: 20 November 2007 21:13 > >>> To: [log in to unmask] > >>> Subject: Re: on 'prevention', liberation and suffering > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> A key issue seems (to me) to be the (problematic) assumption > > that > >>> 'how we see things' and 'how things are' are separate and different. > >>> David > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf > > of > >>> McGowan John (Sussex Partnership Trust) > >>> Sent: Tue 11/20/2007 20:42 > >>> To: [log in to unmask] > >>> Subject: Re: on 'prevention', liberation and suffering Can't > > help > >>> feeling you may be reading too much into non-attatchment. > >>> While I find CBT a bit lightweight compared to the emptiness > > of > >>> the five > >>> skandas, the Buddha and Beck were/are both unified by a a > > belief > >>> that it is how you see things that is the cause of suffering. And > >>> actually they > >>> both have a point. While you can trumpet Beck as a running > > dog of > >>> capitalism (though that leaves him sounding like a villan > > which > >>> is > >>> pretty unfair), suffering is (sometimes) about how we see > > things. > >>> Of course if that's ALL you do then you might be open to the charge > > of, > >>> what was it? "exploiting Capitalist notions of change". > >>> > >>> Any form of Buddhism I've encountered doesn't deny that life > > and > >>> its injustices and sufferings may lead to unavoidable pain (no matter > > how > >>> enlightened you become) it's the constructs that cause the > >>> suffering. > >>> Are therapy and therapists so engaged. Well the ones on this > > list > >>> seem to be. The point I was trying to make though (and to bring my > >>> meandering > >>> back to community psychology) is that the original quote > > outlines > >>> something that for me is actually a dilemma. Both the way one > >>> sees and > >>> the world itself are both important. The fact that I spend > > much > >>> of my > >>> time on the former no more make me a purveyor of bogus > >>> techno-individualism than the burger I had for lunch makes me > > a > >>> murderer. > >>> > >>> Though that may depend on how you see it of course. John > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List > >>> [ mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig > >>> Newnes > >>> Sent: 20 November 2007 15:07 > >>> To: [log in to unmask] > >>> Subject: Re: on 'prevention', liberation and suffering > >>> > >>> Therapists (CBT and all others really) are in the same > >>> business as the Buddha as they are all about trying to change > >>> meanings or our view of things. > >>> > >>> I've seen some rubbish in my time... Surely the point is to > > let > >>> go of > >>> ALL > >>> attachment, including attachment to ideas like "trying to > > change > >>> meanings". > >>> Beck and others are simply exploiting Capitalist notions of > >>> change, well being, etc. This is put in fancy language so therapists > > can > >>> persuade > >>> themselves that change is possible especially through > >>> techno-individualism > >>> which they can charge for. But if these therapists were > >>> Buddhists - and had > >>> Beck not been so interested in making money - they would > > spend > >>> far more > >>> time > >>> just keeping still. > >>> Craig > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "McGowan John (Sussex Partnership Trust)" > >>> < [log in to unmask]> > >>> To: < [log in to unmask]> > >>> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 11:53 AM > >>> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation > > and > >>> suffering > >>> > >>> > >>> It's a very interesting point and of course one where you are > > not > >>> the first there as it is addressed in the first of the Four Noble > > Truths > >>> of > >>> Buddhism (Life is suffering). The The Buddhist framework > >>> obviously goes > >>> on to say that suffering as caused by attatchment and talks > >>> about ways that releif can be obtained. > >>> > >>> In many ways (and this is hardly an original thought) this > > makes > >>> it > >>> sound as if the Buddha studied under Beck. Thus suffering > > (rather > >>> less > >>> poetically) is caused by maladaptive coping mechanisms and > >>> dysfunctional assumptions. Therapists (CBT and all others really) are > > in > >>> the same > >>> business as the Buddha as they are all about trying to change > >>> meanings > >>> or our view of things. > >>> > >>> The reason for thie religious waffle (and I do hate bringing > >>> relegion into things) is really just to point out that this is a very > > old > >>> dliemma > >>> raised by the quote below and one which unfortunately doesn't > >>> seem to > >>> get any easier for sucessive generations. Its just the both > > parts > >>> being true that seems to scupper me! > >>> > >>> John McGowan > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List > >>> [ mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig > >>> Newnes > >>> Sent: 19 November 2007 10:20 > >>> To: [log in to unmask] > >>> Subject: Re: on 'prevention', liberation and suffering > >>> > >>> Surely the "cause" of suffering is being alive. > >>> Craig > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Mark Burton" < [log in to unmask]> > >>> To: < [log in to unmask]> > >>> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 1:01 PM > >>> Subject: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] on 'prevention', liberation and > >>> suffering > >>> > >>> > >>> I came across this quotable insight..... > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> "Anyone working for a saner world will, from time to time, be > >>> faced with > >>> the choice of caring for present suffering or working to > > remove > >>> the > >>> cause > >>> of suffering. The choice is always painful. More so because > > we > >>> know that a > >>> preoccupation with present suffering-of which there is > > apparently > >>> an > >>> inexhaustible supply-is a means of social control. We all > > know > >>> people > >>> who > >>> have become so involved in caring for present suffering that > > they > >>> have not > >>> time and eventually no optimism for the radical changes which > >>> would > >>> remove > >>> the source of the problem." > >>> > >>> > >>> from http://www.mickeyz.net/ > >>> > >>> ___________________________________ > >>> COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community > > psychology > >>> in the > >>> UK. > >>> To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website: > >>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML > >>> For any problems or queries, contact the list moderator > > Rebekah > >>> Pratt on > >>> > >>> [log in to unmask] or Grant Jeffrey on > >>> [log in to unmask] > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. 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