Thanks, Jon, Martin, Doug, & Joanna for all the interesting points you make and questions you raise, such as Joanna's "seed of the poem" query in terms of line breaks. I know exactly what you mean by that emerging unit (whether we call it a line, a measure, or even an image) that strives for the shape created by a line break or a space break, in some cases. I once had a talk with Joe Duemer about how uncomfortable we both tend to feel until that shape begins to form itself as a poetic utterance. And speaking of utterances, Jon, I agree with you totally about the precedence that text has taken over utterance--all the more so now in the Digital Age when texts themselves are so disposable. As far as the measures vs. lines issue goes, to me it's a sound/sight dichotomy with line breaks often marking a pause in thought rather than breath--and one that can sometimes only be effected visually. I've written a few strictly visual poems and have learned not to "perform" them at readings because they just fall flat. How my "measure-for-measure" sound poems, built for aural apprehension, come across on the page, I'm not sure, but they do seem to read well as some kind of word music. In terms of how we listen to (or for) line breaks, Doug used the word "shift," and I think it's more accurate than "pause" as a description of the effect of a line break on the ear. Obviously, it's even more effective on the eye, which has to shift as well. Random thoughts in a very interesting discussion.... Candice __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com