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I like that Eldin ! If indeed it was you who sent the e-mail. How long do you need to bake paper for ? Regards, Steve -----Original Message----- From: The UK Records Management mailing list [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Eldin Rammell, Rammell Consulting Sent: 14 September 2007 11:49 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: BIP008 - legal admissibility I think the question over which medium is easier to corrupt or falsify is a little academic. It all depends on the situation and generalisations are difficult. There are instances where electronic records can be easily changed (such as this email!) but equally there are instances where paper can be easily falsified. The crux of the matter is to introduce and implement controls that provide assurance regarding the authenticity of the record, irrespective of medium. Regards, Eldin. -----Original Message----- From: The UK Records Management mailing list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sent: 14 September 2007 10:55 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: BIP008 - legal admissibility Having personally distributed counterfeit £20 notes a few months ago I suspect the Law Society's statement is a bit behind the times. With modern reprographics, nuclear warheads, laser printers, as an amateur, I would find it MUCH easier to bake a bit of paper form work and cook at 180'C in a moderately hot oven than to hack into even moderately secure electronic storage. Ivor the Incredible Information Manager Clerk to the Council Room 111, County Hall Phone: 029 2087 3346 Mobile : 07779 284684 Fax: 029 2087 3349 Proactive Publishing Promotes Positive Perceptions -----Original Message----- From: The UK Records Management mailing list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robin Scally Sent: 14 September 2007 10:35 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: BIP008 - legal admissibility The Law Society has just released a practice note which covers electronic storage, it states: 'It is much easier to corrupt traditional hard copy data, whether by accident or design, than electronic. Systems need to be in place to safeguard the authenticity, reliability, accessibility and security if all hard copy material, including paper, wax and tablets of stone' You will also have to decide who owns the originals before destroying. Ben Sherman Records Manager Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer 65 Fleet Street, London, EC4Y 1HS Direct Tel: +44 20 7427 3889 Mobile: 077250 63907 Fax: +44 20 7108 3889 -----Original Message----- From: The UK Records Management mailing list [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Paul Dodgson Sent: 14 September 2007 10:26 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: BIP008 - legal admissibility A paper document can suffer abuse more easily than an electronic one and it could be more difficult to prove reliability of paper than electronic - audit trails etc may carry more trust in the electronic environment than the paper environment. However, the paper problem has existed for years, so what makes it more reliable to a lawyer? Vendors rates should really not be discussed in a public forum, so please forgive me if I decline to comment. I wondered lonely as a cloud, that floats on high o'er vales and hills. Paul -----Original Message----- From: The UK Records Management mailing list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tim Rodgers Sent: 14 September 2007 10:11 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: BIP008 - legal admissibility I guess there is an issue here in terms of documents scanned before the organisation is confident of compliance - indeed could a smart lawyer say that, if the scanned image dated from before "accreditation" then could it be less reliable. The other point is we had more or less the same idea - did you tender or just pay Shipman, and if so is he reasonably priced?! Tim -----Original Message----- From: The UK Records Management mailing list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul Dodgson Sent: 14 September 2007 09:33 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: BIP008 - legal admissibility Hi We had the same issue recently and decided to ask an external body to validate our process; in fact we used Alan Shipman! Paul -----Original Message----- From: The UK Records Management mailing list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tina Martin Sent: 14 September 2007 09:30 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: BIP008 - legal admissibility Dear all, I would be grateful for some clarification on the above. We have a department who have decided to scan reccords with the aim of disposing of the orginals, we have purchased the toolkit and have set up process and procedures etc. However my question is can the department dispose of originals if they haven't been through any accreditation process (I don't suggest that they do) ????