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To all This, from Keith, I simply cannot allow to pass unchallenged = According to Plato (writing on behalf of the supposed Socrates), the words were: "Do you observe, Meno, that I am not teaching the boy anything, but only asking him questions?" - which to me means asking transformational questions, while "the boy" is kept looking at the context of the problem-based environment, NOT the so-called context of the non-existing "discipline", and NOT kept looking at "the master" of the discipline who has all the answers. That is exactly the point of Plato's dialogue with the wilful Meno. Your example is somewhat unfortunate - as my own students will testify - students are not keys to fit a lock, but "unlockers" of any key-like (very "wicked") real world problems, something they cannot achieve by being programmed with pre-digested "knowledge" (another of my pet hates = "knowledge" in the world-out-there does not exist, merely a surfeit of information). I quite agree with the idea backing your view of theory (vey much like ethics, which cannot be addressed directly). Students of design cannot and must not be "shown" anything at all (and I for one flatly refuse to "discipline" anyone) - they are quite capable of "seeing" for themselves - once they have been shown the various and possible ways of seeing (Klauss) that exist at the moment ... and what "shows itself" when using theory as a way of seeing is the knowing structure of the student/designer - NOT the enabling structure of the disciplne (which is non-existent, information being no substitute for individual (unknowable to others) knowledge). Johann Nog eenmaal 'n klip in die bos Plato. Meno. Benjamin Jowett, translator. URL: <www3.eu.spiritweb.org/Plato/Meno/part-01.html> >>> Keith Russell <[log in to unmask]> 09/30/07 8:17 AM >>> Dear Klaus and Terry, The point I would make about discipline as the ground of skill-as-knowledge is: a particular skill cannot be acquired without discipline - that is, persistent practice, with formative advice, feed back and encouragement. My example might be, the use of a flat file to make a key fit a key-way. In this respect, discipline (skill-as-knowledge) is like theory - theory is the showing of that which does not show itself (theorem versus maxum). The slave in Plato's Meno needs to be shown - to be disciplined. All the other negatives come about through the abuse of power in the unequal relationship of teacher/learner. the ARL final will start in a few hours. I am practicing patience as part of my discipline. cheers keith