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I love Dylan Thomas, and the anguish I perceive made it difficult for me to read him at times. And I think I am with everybody here in appreciating him, Roger and Kasper included. On 8/24/07, Roger Day <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > I don't see why I'm out of line. It was a question, even without the > question mark. I've read a lot of your opinions and poetry on this > forum, I was following closely your arguments. I guess that counts as > knowledge. > > Roger > > On 8/24/07, kasper salonen <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > you may have a point with Thomas' faults. though I'll take them just > > for his "rare poetic mind". does anybody seriously want to read a > > perfect poet? > > > > "Maybe it is > > you, Kasper, who is trying to hide from modernity." > > > > I don't know what you mean by that & I find it a weird statement in > > light of the fact that you have no knowledge of or insight into my > > work. of course, if you mean in more general terms than those of > > poetry, you're equally out of line but may be hitting on something -- > > I prefer to look back to the traditions of modernism & imagism & even, > > to an extent, romanticism rather than get attached to the ultramodern > > vein I've seen in current 'cutting edge'-like poetry magazines: > > hyperminimalism, post-postmodernism, coding, digital poetry, &c. a lot > > of it is entertaining*, imaginative**, analytic, witty***, and > > extremely innovative -- but seldom engaging. not to me. maybe I'm in a > > stage of some (rudimentary?) kind. maybe I'll be straightened out yet. > > I suppose I'm too much of an asethete at this point to really enable > > myself to appreciate poetry fused with intellectualism. > > > > > > > > from "Tuli&Savu" 2/2007 > > > > * > > here it comes: > > MINIMALISM > > there it went > > > > ** > > t rain s top spar row > > (Leroy Gorman) > > > > *** > > galaxyz > > (Ed Conti) > > > > > > KS > > > > On 24/08/07, Roger Day <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > My grandparents behaved as if they had stepped out of the 18th > > > century. This is isn't a derogatory statement, for I loved them > > > dearly. However it appears to me now that they did not have much truck > > > with modernity beyond domestic conveniences. The decline of the > > > British Empire, the rise of Evolution theory, the decline of the > > > church. Post-colonialism, the bomb. Feminism. Quantum theory. > > > Relativity. Genocides. Even men landing on the moon did not figure > > > much on their radar. The bible and prayer to them was as "real" as > > > anything life could offer. They believed in the bible as a series of > > > literal facts. > > > > > > I was wrong about Dylan Thomas, who wrote much of his best stuff in > > > his early years and spent the rest of his life trying to get back to > > > that state. So, it seems to me that much of his stuff is written from > > > a small town in provincial South Wales, between the wars, almost > > > immune to history. Pretty much like my grandparents. A boy in a > > > bubble, whose reading consisted mostly of Shakespeare and the Bible > > > and he regurgitated/transformed these texts through a rare poetic mind > > > and a Welsh syntax in isolation. It looks nice, sounds pretty, but it > > > has it's price and associations, and I think it is always wise to be > > > aware of what they are. To me most of his poetry - with the notable > > > exception of the one quoted by Jon - seems to be written in a bubble, > > > looking ever inward at the metaphysical self, never outwards. Never > > > seeing things as they are, played upon the blue guitar. Maybe it is > > > you, Kasper, who is trying to hide from modernity. > > > > > > The apocalyptic tag attached to Dylan Thomas is, I think, misleading; > > > one assoiciates it with the various apocalyptic things happening at > > > the time. I think this is accidental. He reminds me of a painter > > > called John Martin who painted scenes from the christian Bible - not > > > the cutesy ones of Mary & Joseph - but the earth-shattering upheavals > > > of the heavens that the old testaments whang on about at length. These > > > scenes fit an era of apocalypses yet he was painting in the early 19th > > > century, a time of upheaval to be sure, but nothing like this > > > http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?workid=9310&roomid=1384, > > > surely. I like Martin's paintings, but a better marraige of symbols > > > and time would be the dutch painters who painted the plagues as hell > > > on earth. > > > > > > Roger > > > > > > On 8/23/07, kasper salonen <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > yes but why should it be an exclusive, unfaltering ideology to stay > > > > 'with the times', if what the tonally archaic has to offer amazes as > > > > much as Thomas? > > > > > > > > KS > > > > > > > > On 23/08/07, Roger Day <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > > Still, definitely a retreat from modernity. > > > > > > > > > > Roger > > > > > > > > > > On 8/23/07, kasper salonen <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > > > ... he'd consider IT less ... > > > > > > > > > > > > On 23/08/07, kasper salonen <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > > > > I think he'd consider less a retreat from life & more a > delving, > > > > > > > diving into life at its most metaphysical. no less 'real', he > & some > > > > > > > would feel, than any hunchback in the park > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 22/08/07, Roger Day <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > > > > > I actually love the lyricism and the way he uses language. > It sings to > > > > > > > > me as no other poetry, and it's the archaism, the tone and > his word > > > > > > > > usage that does this to me, but I cannot hide from the fact > that the > > > > > > > > content is almost a full scale retreat from modernity, from > life. > > > > > > > > Which I suppose is one way of dealing with the violence of > his time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Roger > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 8/22/07, kasper salonen <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I don't mind the hint of archaism. it's still fresh & > attacking & > > > > > > > > > rumbling & wonderful to me. if being 'modern' means > relinquishing the > > > > > > > > > kind of tone possible with Dylan's type oflanguage, I > don't think I > > > > > > > > > care to be modern. at least not all the time > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 21/08/07, Roger Day <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > If you want to stay away from the 20th century, yeah, > Dylan's yr man. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Roger > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 8/21/07, kasper salonen <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > another utterly humbling place to go for language > recycled & built > > > > > > > > > > > into visions is Dylan Thomas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 20/08/07, Douglas Barbour <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Intriguing take, Tad. bpNichol once made the same > point, saying, if > > > > > > > > > > > > your nouns & verbs need support, they're not doing > the proper work, or > > > > > > > > > > > > words to that effect. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found the range of poets you've written about > intriguing, wide, & > > > > > > > > > > > > often opposing.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > On 19-Aug-07, at 12:06 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And you may want to start rethinking if your poem > starts to be > > > > > > > > > > > > > modifier-driven. I've actually written something > on this, which you > > > > > > > > > > > > > may find totally useless, but it's on my website > at > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/essays.htmlunder "Tired Words - > > > > > > > > > > > > > Working Words." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Douglas Barbour > > > > > > > > > > > > 11655 - 72 Avenue NW > > > > > > > > > > > > Edmonton Ab T6G 0B9 > > > > > > > > > > > > (780) 436 3320 > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Latest book: Continuations (with Sheila E Murphy) > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.uap.ualberta.ca/UAP.asp?LID=41&bookID=664 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every time Dick Cheney smiles > > > > > > > > > > > > an angel in heaven > > > > > > > > > > > > gets waterboarded. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jon Stewart > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/ > > > > > > > > > > "In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury > their sons." > > > > > > > > > > Roman Proverb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/ > > > > > > > > "In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury > their sons." > > > > > > > > Roman Proverb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/ > > > > > "In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury their > sons." > > > > > Roman Proverb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/ > > > "In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury their sons." > > > Roman Proverb > > > > > > > > -- > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/ > "In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury their sons." > Roman Proverb >