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I do agree with you on this, Roger. Especially as one whose mother had almost exactly the same background as Thomas, in the same place and at almost the same time, though they never actually met. I used to feel like Kasper. Oh, did I ever! And then I started to realise how dangerously seductive that voice is, how tempting to try and copy -- how easy, in fact, to produce bad copies. (As I have done, all too often.) I'd say the trick is to appreciate Thomas, learn from him, and allow yourself to move on when the time comes. joanna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Day" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 12:49 PM Subject: Re: OK. Here we've gone... > My grandparents behaved as if they had stepped out of the 18th > century. This is isn't a derogatory statement, for I loved them > dearly. However it appears to me now that they did not have much truck > with modernity beyond domestic conveniences. The decline of the > British Empire, the rise of Evolution theory, the decline of the > church. Post-colonialism, the bomb. Feminism. Quantum theory. > Relativity. Genocides. Even men landing on the moon did not figure > much on their radar. The bible and prayer to them was as "real" as > anything life could offer. They believed in the bible as a series of > literal facts. > > I was wrong about Dylan Thomas, who wrote much of his best stuff in > his early years and spent the rest of his life trying to get back to > that state. So, it seems to me that much of his stuff is written from > a small town in provincial South Wales, between the wars, almost > immune to history. Pretty much like my grandparents. A boy in a > bubble, whose reading consisted mostly of Shakespeare and the Bible > and he regurgitated/transformed these texts through a rare poetic mind > and a Welsh syntax in isolation. It looks nice, sounds pretty, but it > has it's price and associations, and I think it is always wise to be > aware of what they are. To me most of his poetry - with the notable > exception of the one quoted by Jon - seems to be written in a bubble, > looking ever inward at the metaphysical self, never outwards. Never > seeing things as they are, played upon the blue guitar. Maybe it is > you, Kasper, who is trying to hide from modernity. > > The apocalyptic tag attached to Dylan Thomas is, I think, misleading; > one assoiciates it with the various apocalyptic things happening at > the time. I think this is accidental. He reminds me of a painter > called John Martin who painted scenes from the christian Bible - not > the cutesy ones of Mary & Joseph - but the earth-shattering upheavals > of the heavens that the old testaments whang on about at length. These > scenes fit an era of apocalypses yet he was painting in the early 19th > century, a time of upheaval to be sure, but nothing like this > http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?workid=9310&roomid=1384, > surely. I like Martin's paintings, but a better marraige of symbols > and time would be the dutch painters who painted the plagues as hell > on earth. > > Roger > > On 8/23/07, kasper salonen <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> yes but why should it be an exclusive, unfaltering ideology to stay >> 'with the times', if what the tonally archaic has to offer amazes as >> much as Thomas? >> >> KS >> >> On 23/08/07, Roger Day <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> > Still, definitely a retreat from modernity. >> > >> > Roger >> > >> > On 8/23/07, kasper salonen <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> > > ... he'd consider IT less ... >> > > >> > > On 23/08/07, kasper salonen <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> > > > I think he'd consider less a retreat from life & more a delving, >> > > > diving into life at its most metaphysical. no less 'real', he & >> > > > some >> > > > would feel, than any hunchback in the park >> > > > >> > > > KS >> > > > >> > > > On 22/08/07, Roger Day <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> > > > > I actually love the lyricism and the way he uses language. It >> > > > > sings to >> > > > > me as no other poetry, and it's the archaism, the tone and his >> > > > > word >> > > > > usage that does this to me, but I cannot hide from the fact that >> > > > > the >> > > > > content is almost a full scale retreat from modernity, from life. >> > > > > Which I suppose is one way of dealing with the violence of his >> > > > > time. >> > > > > >> > > > > Roger >> > > > > >> > > > > On 8/22/07, kasper salonen <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> > > > > > I don't mind the hint of archaism. it's still fresh & attacking >> > > > > > & >> > > > > > rumbling & wonderful to me. if being 'modern' means >> > > > > > relinquishing the >> > > > > > kind of tone possible with Dylan's type oflanguage, I don't >> > > > > > think I >> > > > > > care to be modern. at least not all the time >> > > > > > >> > > > > > KS >> > > > > > >> > > > > > On 21/08/07, Roger Day <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> > > > > > > If you want to stay away from the 20th century, yeah, Dylan's >> > > > > > > yr man. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Roger >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On 8/21/07, kasper salonen <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> > > > > > > > another utterly humbling place to go for language recycled >> > > > > > > > & built >> > > > > > > > into visions is Dylan Thomas >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > KS >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On 20/08/07, Douglas Barbour <[log in to unmask]> >> > > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > Intriguing take, Tad. bpNichol once made the same point, >> > > > > > > > > saying, if >> > > > > > > > > your nouns & verbs need support, they're not doing the >> > > > > > > > > proper work, or >> > > > > > > > > words to that effect. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > I found the range of poets you've written about >> > > > > > > > > intriguing, wide, & >> > > > > > > > > often opposing.... >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Doug >> > > > > > > > > On 19-Aug-07, at 12:06 PM, TheOldMole wrote: >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > And you may want to start rethinking if your poem >> > > > > > > > > > starts to be >> > > > > > > > > > modifier-driven. I've actually written something on >> > > > > > > > > > this, which you >> > > > > > > > > > may find totally useless, but it's on my website at >> > > > > > > > > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/essays.html under >> > > > > > > > > > "Tired Words - >> > > > > > > > > > Working Words." >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Douglas Barbour >> > > > > > > > > 11655 - 72 Avenue NW >> > > > > > > > > Edmonton Ab T6G 0B9 >> > > > > > > > > (780) 436 3320 >> > > > > > > > > http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/ >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Latest book: Continuations (with Sheila E Murphy) >> > > > > > > > > http://www.uap.ualberta.ca/UAP.asp?LID=41&bookID=664 >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Every time Dick Cheney smiles >> > > > > > > > > an angel in heaven >> > > > > > > > > gets waterboarded. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Jon Stewart >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > -- >> > > > > > > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/ >> > > > > > > "In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury >> > > > > > > their sons." >> > > > > > > Roman Proverb >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > -- >> > > > > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/ >> > > > > "In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury their >> > > > > sons." >> > > > > Roman Proverb >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/ >> > "In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury their sons." >> > Roman Proverb >> > >> > > > -- > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/ > "In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury their sons." > Roman Proverb