 |
 |
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture I went digging in our Latin dictionaries. The Oxford Latin dictionary only gives "predecessor in office." Most give both meanings, but most give "predecessor in office" as the first in line. [I am leaving out the sense of the word as "military scout".] Tom Izbicki Christopher Crockett wrote: > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > a minor point, perhaps, but i would be interested to hear the opinions of list > members less Latiniacally-Challenged than myself regarding the meaning of an > expression in a 12th c. charter i'm interested in. > > in 1149 (n.s.) Count Theobald IV of Blois(/Chartres) confirmed certain justice > rights exercised by the (newly reformed) canons of the abbey of St. Mary > Magdalen of Chateaudun, which had been granted (or so he claimed) by > _antecessores mei ab antiquo_, back in the time when it was (just?) their > chapel (_capelle eorum_). > > he uses this expression three times in a rather short charter. > > my question is: does he mean to say his "ancestors" or his "predecessors" did > this? > > in this case it might be argued that it is a distinction without a difference, > since Teddy4 was a direct descendant of the earliest known Counts of Blois, > going back a century and a half, well before the foundation of St. MMCD (which > appears to have been c. 1060). > > but i'm wondering whether or not there might have been some subtle nuance of > meaning intended here, since the thrust of the charter is to attempt to > establish (at least in principle, in the face of the new, bishop-driven reform > of the place) that, institutionally, the abbey owed its existence --and its > rights-- to the the counts. > > any off-the-top-of-the-head thoughts would be appreciated. > > i include the text of the body of the charter below, with the relevent > expressions axterixéd. > > c > > > ------------ > > L. Merlet and L. Jarry, Cartulaire de l'abbaye de la Madeleine de Châteaudun. > (Châteaudun, 1896), no. 11: > > Quoniam Deus veritas est et qui veritatem impugnant Deum quoque constat > impugnare, que vera scimus, ne posteros lateant, stilo memorie mandando > posteritati transmittere curavimus. Quamobrem ego Theobaldus, Blesensis comes, > existencium presentie et futurorum posteritati notum fieri volo quod > **antecessores mei ab antiquo dederant*** ecclesie Beate-Marie-Magdalene > Castridunensis, sicut capelle eorum, ne alieni liceret exibere sancta ad > sacramenta juranda, in villa Castriduni, preterquam ministris predicte > ecclesie, omnibus duellis vel sacramentis que in curia eorum seu in manu > prepositorum ipsorum, in prefata villa, insumpta vel arramissa fuissent, que > videlicet ipsi per se possent accipere vel dimittere. > > Judicia vero, que tunc temporis de ferro esse solebant, in curia eorum seu > prepositorum ipsorum insumpta, in prenominata ecclesia ferentur. > > Ego autem Theobaldus comes hoc donum et hanc institutionem ***antecessorum > meorum*** prefate ecclesie Beate-Marie concedo et in perpetuum confirmo. > > Et quoniam judicia ferri, que in temporibus ***antecessorum meorum*** esse > solebant, prevaricata erant, addo insuper et confirmo ut omnia judicia, seu de > ferro sive de aqua, in curia mea seu prepositi mei apud Castridunum insumpta, > vel aliunde per justiciam nostram adducta; sacramenta vero de duellis et aliis > rebus, sicut superius dicta sunt, ita teneri precipio, exceptis sacramentis > que unus homo fecerit alteri si fuerint adramissi ante me vel ante prepositum > meum, in parochiis illis in quibus insumpta fuerint expectabuntur et agentur. > ********************************************************************** > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] > For further information, visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html