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I have not read Moore's book, so I'm unsure of the context. Perhaps Tine refers to runic talismans (rune-tine) and Francis is asking Dee to use his expertise to create a Moon Talisman for him, using the proper invocations, symbols, etc. and casting it at the properly "fixed" time to create this talisman. My hunch is that Moore is munging Celtic-wicca (tine) with Dee's Neoplatonic (Ficino\Paracelsus\Agrippa) magic. To come up w/ this cryptic way of his to say Francis is commissioning a talisman from Dee. I'm sure you'd need to search for a good scholarly sources (these are not), but here's a start: http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:Db95xIsmtiIJ:www.ealdriht.org/runtal.htm l+talisman+tine&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us Here's a modern version I found on the web of a Moon Talisman: http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/silvermoontalisman.html The site also has Lilly's chapter on the Moon from his Christian Astrology: http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/moon.html You can always try to email Moore for clarification, I'd suggest: [log in to unmask] -John ALCHEMI not MICHAEL http://www.jwmt.org/v1n2/images/sigils/_hbgrlat.jpg VANITY = zain vau he daleth gimel http://www.esotericarchives.com/agrippa/malachim.gif and they followed VANITY and became VAIN, and went after the heathen that were round about them, concerning whom the LORD had charged them, that they should not do like them. 17:16 And they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal. 17:17 And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger. -----Original Message----- From: Sidney-Spenser Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of James C. Nohrnberg Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 1:50 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: fix &c. Read Milton's two lines for "fix" (regarding time) with his Adam to his Michael: How soon hath thy prediction, seer blest, Meaured this transient world, the race of time, Till time stand fixed: beyond is all abyss, Eternity, whose end no eye can reach. PL XII, 553ff. And Macbeth with Reginald Scot, Discoverie of Witchcraft I.iv Among the hurtful witches: "These be they (saith he [Sprenger]) that raise haile, tempests, and hurtfull weather; as lightening, thunder &c. ... And first _Ovid_ affirmeth, that they can raise and suppresse lightening and thunder, raine and haile, clouds and winds, tempests and earthquakes. Other doo write, that they can pull down the moone and starres." (Guazzo, Compendium Maleficarum I.viii: "(Witches] can also evoke darkness;...the Tartars are [reportedly] so potent in devilish illusions that they can cause darkness when and where they will....") The moon and sun are constantly paired symbols in alchemical icongraphy. Fixing our moon, or mercury, the volatile element quicksilver, is part of the great work, I think. The grosser elements are removed from substances by calcination (usually by heat or fire), and thereby they are also to be fixed. Satan does not visit the moon literally, but he does so allusively, by visiting the lunar (and Ariostan) surface of the mundane sphere, as part of the overall voyage through an atomistic material chaos to a Paracelsian reservoir of sublime matter and from there to a Gallilean-terrestrial landscape/surface. Three different states or views of matter are implied. On Mon, 14 May 2007 15:57:08 -0400 John Leonard <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > The suggestion that "fix" means "stop" might draw some support from a >possibly parallel usage by Milton in a cryptic little poem (just 2 lines >long) he jotted on the back of a letter sent him by Henry Lawes, enclosing >his passport, before he embarked on his Italian journey in 1638: > >Fix here ye overdated spheres > That wing the restless foot of time. > > Such commentary as this mysterious little poem has provoked has tended to >focus on the meaning of "overdated" (which seems to be Milton's coinage, >whatever it means). I wonder if "tine" in "fix and tine the moon" might >mean "tie" in the sense "bind." This might seem far from alchemy, but >Milton refers to alchemical binding in PL 3.600-605, where alchemists "bind >/ Volatile Hermes" (the element mercury) and "call up unbound / In various >shapes old Proteus from the sea". If memory serves me right, alchemical >binding means the removing of air (a volatile element) from common mercury >to make "philosophic mercury"--a necessary step toward the making of the >elixir and philosopher's stone. I have no idea as to how or whether the >moon might be relevant to all this. Milton in PL is talking about the sun. > > John Leonard > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "James C. Nohrnberg" ><[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 3:19 PM > Subject: Re: John Dee and Alan Moore > > >> All of the suggestions are good. The phrase, "fix and tine the moon" >> sounds Jonsonian, as kind of pseudo-scientific cant. Especially if the >> moon is the Virgin Queen Belphoebe/Cynthia, whose horoscope Dee could well >> have cast. For Dr. Dee did in fact fix the day--i.e., an ideally >> propitious one--for Elizabeth's coronation. Of course the attempt to >> e-fix the moon on the tines of an alchemical-astrological toasting-fork >> re-makes the point about Dee--a mathematician, astrologer, geographer, >> astronomer (I guess), medicine man, alchemist-ry student (alchemists "fix" >> metals in states that are nearer than normal to gold, and work with >> "tincting" to do this--the moon is not a metal, but it stands for silver, >> and thus for quick-silver or mercury, as the sun stands for gold and thus >> for sulphur). Burghley urged Dee to come home from the Continent and turn >> base metal into gold to pay for the expenses of England's taking on the >> Armada. I.e, Dee could hardly help being reputed a magician. Magicians, >> like Mutability, can molest and arrest the moon, or predict and produce >> eclipses (compare the powers of Job's curse or spell on the day and the >> night in 3:3-10). >> >> On Mon, 14 May 2007 10:10:56 -0600 >> Katherine Eggert <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>> Dear Charlie, >>> >>> There's a chance this might be astrological rather than alchemical. You >>> "fix" the moon (and the planets etc.) as part of doing an astrological >>> chart. If "tine" is not a misprint, it's pretty much a synonym for "fix" >>> (tine=enclose). An EEBO-TCP search of "fix" near "moon" gives you this >>> reference: >>> >>> Title: The five books of Mr. Manilius containing a system of the ancient >>> astronomy and astrology : together with the philosophy of the Stoicks >>> Author: Manilius, Marcus. >>> Publication Info: London : [s.n.], 1700. >>> For Instance,* grant it were thy great Concern >>> To know the 28 Planet's Twelfths; securely learn; >>> I'll shew the Method: As you count the Signs, >>>First mark that Sign's Degree where Phoebe shine >>> And views the new-born Child; that multiply >>> By Twelve: (because Twelve Signs adorn the Sky) >>> Observe the Product, and from thence assign >>> To those gay Stars where Phaebe's found to shine >>> Thrice ten Degrees: Then go in Order on, >>> Assigning Thirty till the Number's done; >>> And where the Number ends there fix the Moon: Page 78 >>> That is her Twelfth. (p. 77) >>> >>> Dee did some famous astrological charts -- I seem to remember he did one >>> for Queen Elizabeth that she refused to see! -- so you could pay him to >>> learn how to do that, too. >>> >>> Best, >>> Katherine >>> >>> >>> Katherine Eggert >>> Associate Professor and Chair >>> Department of English >>> University of Colorado >>> 226 UCB >>> Boulder, CO 80309-0226 >>> (303) 492-7382 >>> [log in to unmask] >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Charles Butler To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Monday, May >>> 14, 2007 3:25 AM >>> Subject: Re: John Dee and Alan Moore >>> >>> >>> Thanks to Penny and Laurie. I've had a look at the Glasgow web site, and >>> at first glance it seems very possible that 'tine' may be a misprint (or >>> misreading) for 'tinge' or 'ting' - which would make sense in an >>> alchemical context, should one wish to create the Philosopher's Stone. >>> Which is the kind of thing people would pay money to Doctor Dee to learn >>> how to do, I guess! Charlie >>> >>> -- >>> Website: www.charlesbutler.co.uk >> >> [log in to unmask] >> James Nohrnberg >> Dept. of English, Bryan Hall 219 >> Univ. of Virginia >> P.O Box 400121 >> Charlottesville, VA 22904-4121 >> [log in to unmask] James Nohrnberg Dept. of English, Bryan Hall 219 Univ. of Virginia P.O Box 400121 Charlottesville, VA 22904-4121