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Christopher's "what is narrated is immune to disbelief" (if I've got that right) seems right to me viz. fiction, but it's hard to see "disbelief" (or belief, for that matter) as an issue for poetry. Since poems create an aura of truthfulness that's only a pretense anyway, why would a poet go for broke with dis/belief? Joanna, I'd love to hear more about the Martian school, which is a new one on me. Thanks, Candice --- Joanna Boulter <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > James Fenton and Christopher Reid were also > Martians, at least in certain > incarnations. I think they outgrew it, though. > > I recently used the approach to try and expand the > mental and poetic angles > of the women in my writing group. Found it led > pretty readily on to > Anglo-Saxon riddles, which they've been having great > fun with. Someone came > up with a really bawdy one describing a garlic > press! > > joanna > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roger Day" <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 10:35 AM > Subject: Re: Constructivist Poetics (was Re: > methadone) > > > Schrödinger's plumber? > > The martian school always seemed limiited. Was there > ever anyone other > than Craig Raine? does a single poet make a school? > > Roger > > On 2/28/07, Christopher Walker <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > The key to *de dicto* v *de re* is modality: for > example, does 'yesterday' > > or 'definitely' refer to when or whether I said > something or when or to > > what > > extent it was true? There's a similar effect with > probability: a 50% > > chance > > of something bad happening doesn't, for example, > mean a 100% of something > > 50% less bad. > > > > UK plumbers make the distinction between the two > all too clear. Water is > > dripping through your ceiling so you phone the > plumber. 'He should be with > > you in an hour.' Ho hum. You interpret this *de > dicto*, as a qualified > > assurance that the plumber is going to come. So an > hour later, you phone > > again: 'Any news about that plumber?' 'Yes, he > should be with you now,' a > > *de re* interpretation: after the elapse of one > hour there now exists a > > sort > > of qualified presence (a state of > I-should-be-thereness) on the plumber's > > part; but he still hasn't shown his face. > > > > As to the question, > > > > <snip> > > Does one apply more to fiction and the other more > to poetry? > > <snip> > > > > conventions such as (in English) using the past > tense are certainly one > > way, > > by making the _saying_ modal, of rendering what is > narrated more immune to > > disbelief: these events are not true any more (or > not necessarily true), > > only *once upon a time*. And that allows for a > certain coexistence between > > reader (or writer) and what is in the text. When > Faulkner writes, 'My > > mother > > is a fish' in *As I Lay Dying* he is creating a > problem that gets much > > worse > > in poetry, where the certainty with which things > are said and the > > certainty > > with which disparates are yoked together seem to > grow in inverse > > proportion > > to the certainty with which the underlying > propositions may be read. > > > > Incidentally members of the UK Martian school, > just to take a passing > > swipe, > > seem to me to domesticate that rather threatening > effect, to say (in > > effect) > > I am looking at reality with this funny pair of > glasses rather than, say, > > allowing a new reality much more weird (and much > more weirdly present) > > than > > they (or the reader) might have expected it to be. > > > > CW > > _______________________________________________ > > > > 'What's the point of having a language that > everybody knows?' > > (Gypsy inhabitant of Barbaraville) > > > > > -- > My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/ > "Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious." Oscar Wilde > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL