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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture On Thursday, March 22, 2007, at 4:34 am, Cate Gunn wrote: > from the Introduction by Simon Tugwell O.P. to the Classics of Western > Spirituality edition of Selected Writings of the Early Dominicans: > > Bl. Jordan of Pisa tells us, [in a sermon on St Dominic's day, > preached in > Santa Maria Novella, Florence, in 1303] that when Dominic proposed to > the > Pope the foundation of an Order of Preachers, the Pope wondered to himself, > 'Who is this man, who wants to found an Order consisting entirely of > bishops?' > > > > which seems to imply an assumed identity between preachers and bishops If true, this would imply an identity assumed in 1303, when the sermon was delivered. But it wouldn't be very good evidence for the state of affairs in 1215, almost ninety years earlier, when Dominic went to Rome to seek approval of his order. What is reported is a witticism in a celebratory address to a Dominican audience looking back to a time before the reform had been institutionalized and thus quite likely a case of stretching truth for rhetorical effect. The reason why I say "If true" is that it's my understanding that we don't have any sermons from Jordan's hand. What we do have are collections of abstracts of his sermons written down by others who had heard them. Under those circumstances, to say "Jordan ... tells us" seems a tad misleading. "Jordan is reported to have said" would be more accurate and "Jordan is reported to have surmised" is probably even closer to the mark. Though Jordan will have said something of this sort, we don't know what his actual form of words was. Nor do we know whether he also observed that he was exaggerating in order to to make a point. By their very nature abstracts simplify and omit. Best, John Dillon ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html