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Another line in this long discussion I know but... Somewhere in the past I was informed that brown rice is more susceptible to insect attack than white rice, and that is one of the reasons for the cultural preference for white rice in majority-world countries. If that is so then other hulled grains may have been preferred for their keeping quantities. As I write this, I suspect that the prevention of sprouting and then rotting would also have been a good reason for hulling. nic Sarpaki Anaya wrote: > > Yes, experiments are very valuable for all the reasons you state but it > would "get us further" if all written/epigraphical knowledge of these > things have been collected organised, digested and then tested > experimentally. Unfortunately, these problems that Mac and especially > Stephen want to understand are very much in the fringe of what goes on in > Classical studies. People talk & write about agriculture in the Classical > period but most of the information is collected from written material. > Strangely enough less is known (first hand) about classical agriculture than > Prehistoric agriculture in Greece due to the fact that botanical remains > which are one -if not the most important body of data- do rarely get > collected from Classical sites!!! We believe we know it all from the various > authors!! Little do we consider that these scholars were definitely not > interested -most of the time- in providing information that they considered > trivial for their readers and too well known for their day. Therefore, we > fall in the trap of considering that what is mentioned in the texts is what > was universally happening in the Greek world!! Yet, we should not forget > that most of the writings are Atheno-centric! > > Regarding the fact that cereal flour or meal would be more prone to get > "quicker" insect infestation than whole grain or even husked grain, that is > a fact but I do not know off-hand whether this has been measured > experimentally. I have a feeling that salt would not protect very much but > perhaps rather an insect repellent. Bread too would be attacked by other > things...moss, rodents unless turned into hard tack (a double baked bread- > but it could be done with any flour, e.g. barley, wheat) as that mentioned > by Sabine, Dakos, kouloures, paximadi. If tightly kept without humidity, > this is good to eat even after 1 year (tasted by me) and would have been > probably -my guess- the staple used on boats and for long trips. It is light > and can accompany any food. Bulgur could also be used such as a "fast food"! > A discussion about Greek soldiers' food is discussed in the book by > J.J.Coulton (ed.) 2002 The Fort at Phylla, Vrachos: excavations and > researches at a Late Archaic Fort in Central Euboea. BSA, suplement 33, esp. > chapter 7. > > Some other questions also crop up as one thinks about this subject. Are we > sure that all of the army got hulled barley? What about the higher ranks? > Our assumption is based on how many inscriptions? Were they all from Attica? > Or was that the same for all areas? Even the translations of terms such as > "hulled" from Greek to English pose certain problems. > > Having said that, I believe what Stephen is trying to do is very important > and most importantly has not been questioned before. So yes, we would like > to see more of this type of work "awakening" for the Classical period of > Greece and also -very important- we need to have MORE > archaeobotanical samples from sites of this period which would enable us to > view the inscriptions from the angle of the remains themselves. > > Good luck to Stephen, > Anaya > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Beatrice Hopkinson" <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 7:16 AM > Subject: Yet more on barley and barley-flour > > > Everybody's input here has been most interesting and informative. But as > > an > > experimenter I would also venture to add something about the importance > > of being > > exact in trying to reproduce what went on in antiquity. My own > > experiments showed that one learns unexpected things experimentally that > > were not understood or could be foreseen from a modern point of view, and > > in fact went against the grain (forgive the pun) of modern specialists. > > There is also evidence of Mesopotamian diet from the 3rd and 2nd mbc that > > shows food rations were distributed according to rank and gender, with > > women and laborers and children getting less, higher ranking officials > > getting more. But again, an > > experiment that stays as close to the truth as we now know it, can still > > reveal some surprises and therefore worth doing. So I don't agree that > > it would be a 'fool's errand' :) > > > > With regard to the last question on barley flour or meal being > > biologically more unstable than barley grains, or even bread. Wouldn't > > the addition of salt stabilize all of these? > > > > Bea > > > >>A last word from Stephen. > >> > >>> Dear all, > >>> > >>> Again, thank you all for your comments and advice, which are proving > >>> enormously helpful. And thank you, especially, Sabine: I did not > >>> know about the twice-baked barley biscuit from Crete--this must be > >>> very similar to the biscoctum (i.e. twice-cooked) barley biscuit > >>> medieval and early modern Mediterranean galley crews ate. I will > >>> definitely follow that up, in Athens, and in Crete, too, if I can > >>> find the time and money. > >>> > >>> Nic, Anaya and Sabine have again pointed out some of the many > >>> problems inherent in this question, and it may seem to some, or > >>> most, of you that I am on a fool's errand. I may be, but I wanted > >>> to post one more time in order to provide you with an outline of > >>> what we know on this subject, in order to provide a sounder basis > >>> for the discussion. As a start, I should say that Forbes and > >>> Foxhall's article (Chiron 12 (1982): 41-90) was ground-breaking in > >>> its collection and treatment of the literary and epigraphical > >>> evidence (one of the things Anaya asks for in her e-mail) for > >>> rations in classical antiquity, and remains the starting point for > >>> any research on the topic, although new data and new insights have > >>> emerged since they published their artice. Also: > >>> > >>> 1. We know that the predominant type of barley in classical Greece > >>> was 6-rowed and hulled. > >>> > >>> 2. We do know, from many and various literary sources, that > >>> barley-flour, olive oil, and wine were the basis of the diet of the > >>> classical Greek soldier and sailor, together with some condiments > >>> such as garlic and onions. We can also use the evidence of rations > >>> handed out (we know in many cases that these were handed out and > >>> were not just 'paper' rations) to sailors and soldiers in the > >>> medieval and early modern Mediterranean as a control on our > >>> calculations of the caloric content of the diets of Greek soldiers > >>> and sailors (sometimes, of course, they will have needed more, but > >>> we are aiming for a norm, in order to produce a minimum estimate, > >>> or order of magnitude, rather than aiming at precision). The > >>> caloric content of the diets of soldiers and sailors in the later > >>> Mediterranean was roughly between 3,000 and 3,300 calories--with > >>> some outliers--and cereals or cereal products made up 60-70% of the > >>> caloric content. This figure of 60-70% is reflected in the diets of > >>> most, if not all, pre-industrial Mediterranean populations. > >>> > >>> 3. There must have been different grades of flour and we know very > >>> little about this for classical Greece, the period I'm interested > >>> in, though we do know a little more about this subject for the > >>> early Roman empire. I am assuming, for purposes of calculation, > >>> that soldiers and sailors were buying roughly milled barley. As > >>> for crop processing, there is M.-C. Amouretti, *Le pain et > >>> l'huile*, and three books recently published in a new series by > >>> Brill [Technology and Change in History] on ancient food > >>> technology, processing, and milling, but still, for classical > >>> Greece, we know very little. > >>> > >>> I will end with one more question--my last to the list, I promise, I > >>> have already taken up too much of your time and thought--brought up > >>> by Anaya. Barley-flour or meal is obviously far more biologically > >>> unstable than barley grains, or even bread--does anybody know how > >>> long it would last before it became inedible? > >>> > >>> Again, thank you all for your time and interest, > >>> all the best, > >>> Stephen. > >> > >>Mac Marston > >>Cotsen Institute of Archaeology > >>University of California, Los Angeles > >>[log in to unmask] > >>C: (310) 923-0640 > >> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.1.413 / Virus Database: 268.18.15/728 - Release Date: 20/3/2007 > > > >