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Hi Mike, Thanks for the expanded comments. This is closer to what I meant to appear to be saying :-) You can check if your site is "valid Web2.0" btw. at: http://web2.0validator.com/ The Science Museum gets 5 out of 52 but at least one of those is that it appears already to be a Web 3.1 site :-) We'll know we're in trouble when people start taking these scores seriously. Regards, James On Mon, 19 Feb 2007, Ellis Mike wrote: > Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:06:12 -0000 > From: Ellis Mike <[log in to unmask]> > Reply-To: Museums Computer Group <[log in to unmask]> > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [MCG] Quick Introduction to Web 2.0 > > I should probably expand on my slightly cryptic, early Sunday morning email... > > There seem to me to be two diametrically-opposed dangers with the whole Web 2.0 thing.. > > 1. We get caught up in the hype, drop everything we do and begin blogging and wiki-ing instead > > 2. We fail to take notice of what the hype says about the new expereriences these technologies can offer, and just carry on trying to develop stuff where the *overarching* focus is on standards compliance, rather than on user experience. > > I do agree with James (and you'll see more of this in the paper that Brian and I have done for Museums and the Web 2007, if you're coming to SF) that there is danger of us being whisked up into a Gartner Hype Curve Of Hell. I'm sure I'm not alone in having endless requests to "do a blog" without any concrete ideas about what or why... > > At the same time, I think we should look very closely at what Museums are trying to do, both on the web and off. If a key part of this is to take a bunch of museum objects and make them relevant to **real** people (and sorry, I don't include museum specialists in this, rude though that may be..) - then we absolutely *should* be taking heed of what YouTube or Flickr have managed to do. Where relevant (underlined several times), UGC can be an incredibly powerful tool in helping us with new audiences. > > To clarify my second point, before my P45 comes whisking through the post: chasing standards is really, REALLY important. But I genuinely believe that engaging users and improving their experience is the single most important thing we should be doing. > > BUT - what is exciting about the "new" ways of working is that these two things don't battle against each other - genuine XML data sharing techniques back-end can REALLY be rendered out into beautiful CSS designs which degrade gracefully and comply with any standard you care to throw at it. Which is why, incidentally, I have such a problem with Mr. Nielsen's site www.useit.com - it **LOOKS AWFUL** and is a terrible exemplar of what can be achieved if you put your mind to it... > > So - let's not go assuming that new stuff = bad stuff. Yes, there are some questions about how AJAX accessibility can be improved, for example, but let's engage with those debates rather than running away from them. > > At the end of the day (neck on line..), does your average user really care that MySpace has no API, terrible non-compliant code, no data release, HORRIBLE design?? Apparantly the 100 million people with accounts don't think so. It's sad, but undeniably true. > > ta > > Mike > > _________________ > Web Site Manager > Science Museum > Exhibition Road > London, SW7 2DD > > 07970 846 059 > > http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk <http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk> > http://www.danacentre.org.uk <http://www.danacentre.org.uk> > http://www.ingenious.org.uk <http://www.ingenious.org.uk> > http://www.makingthemodernworld.org.uk <http://www.makingthemodernworld.org.uk> > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Museums Computer Group on behalf of Brian Kelly > Sent: Mon 19/02/2007 08:31 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Quick Introduction to Web 2.0 > > > >> Hi, >> >> Tim Berners-Lee's thoughts are also interesting. >> Good summary at >> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060901-7650.html >> >> I'm with Tim on this one. I cringe every time I hear the >> phrase "Web 2.0" > > Actually. I'm not sure you're with Tim, at all. Tim was arguing that the > read/write Web's approach, based on technologies such as blogs and wikis and > user-generated content, is an implementation of his original vision of the > Web. So if you're with Tim, you will welcome the opportunity which Web 2.0 > technologies provide. Tim is, understandably, annoyed that his vision for > the Web has hijacked by the software development community and large > organisations which resulted in primarily a read-only Web. > > You'll also notice that "has nothing but good things to say about AJAX" - so > those nice, easy to use Web 2.0 services which are based on AJAX can also > be a good think, with W3C working of guidelines to maximise the > accessibility os such interfaces - see > http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-roadmap/ >> >> Meanwhile, Internet Explorer 7 still comes nowhere near close >> to rendering CSS properly > > I agree - encourage organisations to move to a browser with better support > for standards. > >> Accessibility is more than just presenting information in a >> way that's accessible to people with impairments. It's also >> about presenting information in a manner that's accessible to >> machines (e.g., Google's indexing bot - almost certainly your >> most important user). > > I agree. BTW Technorati is a great search engine for the blogosphere (which > is much more integrated with search engines than Google, as pingbacks will > notify services automatically when new content is created). As an example, > see: > http://www.technorati.com/search/mcg > >> A better option would be to continue to work on getting the >> basics right - campaign for better browsers (and / or use >> alternatives), create, support and stick to standards and use >> validators as well as manual checks to maximise content >> accessibility for people and machines. > > I would agree with all of this, if you replace "A better option ... " with > "A complementary approach ...". > > Brian > > -------------------------------- > Brian Kelly > UKOLN, University of Bath, BATH, UK, BA2 7AY > Email: [log in to unmask] > Phone: +44 1225 383943 > >> as it seems to be nothing more than a marketing buzzword if >> anyone can actually define what it means. We've had SGML >> since 1980, XML since 1998 and of course all the effort >> (arguably in the face of some market >> resistance) the W3C / IETF and others have put into the DOM, >> SVG, SMIL, XML and friends, Atom etc. specifications has >> always been aimed at creating a semantic web that's write as >> well as read. >> >> Meanwhile, Internet Explorer 7 still comes nowhere near close >> to rendering CSS properly (try the Acid2 test - Opera passes, >> Firefox comes close), ECMAScript doesn't have an officially >> registered MIME-type and websites are littered with basic >> coding errors such as, e.g., Birmingham Stories (which I >> mention as it's previously been the subject of an MCG >> presentation) having 607 validation errors on the home-page. >> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.birminghams > tories.co.uk%2F >> >> Accessibility is more than just presenting information in a >> way that's accessible to people with impairments. It's also >> about presenting information in a manner that's accessible to >> machines (e.g., Google's indexing bot - almost certainly your >> most important user). >> >> I fear that if we get caught up in the hype, we risk an >> expensive and inefficient waste of resources and may get >> side-tracked into a "blog everything" mentality that will >> nicely line the pockets of former "Flash monkeys" but do >> little else to improve the fundamental quality of the web. > >> Regards, >> >> James >> >> On Fri, 16 Feb 2007, Kostas Arvanitis wrote: >> >>> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:26:31 +0000 >>> From: Kostas Arvanitis <[log in to unmask]> >>> Reply-To: Museums Computer Group <[log in to unmask]> >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> Subject: Re: [MCG] Quick Introduction to Web 2.0 >>> >>> This response is also very interesting! >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAVmB5dKZZ8&eurl= >>> >>> Kostas. >>> >>> >>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>> Dr. Konstantinos Arvanitis >>> Lecturer in Museology >>> Centre for Museology >>> School of Arts Histories and Cultures >>> Humanities Bridgeford Street >>> The University of Manchester >>> Oxford Road >>> Manchester M13 9PL >>> Tel.: +44 161 2753018 >>> http://www.manchester.ac.uk/museology/ >>> http://digitalheritage.wordpress.com/ >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Museums Computer Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On >> Behalf Of >>> Tony Gill >>> Sent: 14 February 2007 21:41 >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> Subject: Quick Introduction to Web 2.0 >>> >>> This is one of the best quick introductions to Web 2.0 that >> I've seen: >>> >>> >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gmP4nk0EOE>http://www.youtube.com/wat >>> ch?v=6gmP4nk0EOE >>> >>> (apart from the music, which is terrible). >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> T. >>> >>> ************************************************** >>> For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the >> list, visit >>> the website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk >>> ************************************************** >>> >>> ************************************************** >>> For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the >> list, visit >>> the website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk >>> ************************************************** >>> >> >> -- >> >> [log in to unmask] >> SDF-EU Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf-eu.org >> >> ************************************************** >> For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the >> list, visit the website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk >> ************************************************** >> > > ************************************************** > For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list, visit the website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk > ************************************************** > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned on behalf of NMSI for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > > > > > This e-mail and attachments are intended for the named addressee only and are confidential. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender immediately, delete the message from your computer system and destroy any copies. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not reflect the views of the National Museum of Science & Industry. This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > > ************************************************** > For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list, visit the website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk > ************************************************** > -- [log in to unmask] SDF-EU Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf-eu.org ************************************************** For mcg information and to manage your subscription to the list, visit the website at http://www.museumscomputergroup.org.uk **************************************************