Dear Dan and anyone else,
 
A number of world thinkers (e.g. Neale Donald Walsch & Deepak Chopra), whom I find persuasive, consider that climate change is at the forefront of a series of apparently insuperable crises which have to occur ahead  of socio-economic/cultural/philosophical transformation - in consciousness and in values.  Neale Walsch specifically calls it 500 year interval jump-time, last occurring at the time of the Renaissance, though at a smaller scale, since that mainly affected Europe.  This is why we, in SoW, are promoting a New Movement for Survival at this time, and have created a new domain name to serve it.  See link below.
 
I suggest that all of our thinking needs to move away from concentrating upon rationally determined outcomes and 'realistic' options, for change will be far more profound and un-predictable than currently conceived ideological alternatives can handle.  I maintain it is not useful to group 'many environmentalists (as) united around an essentially neoliberal response to climate change', for they/we are hugely varied in in our responses.
 
Best wishes from Jim Scott
 
Sign up on-line to
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----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Dan Welch
To: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: Running a Temperature - an action plan for the eco-crisis

Does substantial mitigation of climate change, absent global economic collapse, presuppose social revolution? Is a global economic collapse resulting from oil and gas depletion the most likely scenario for substantial mitigation of climate change? 
 
I find it difficult to articulate my political desires (for systemic socio-economic transformation) with the foreshortened timescale we are presented with within which to substantially mitigate climate change. I am wary that climate change can become the vehicle for political desires (my own included) such that realistic options may be rejected on ideological grounds - or to put it another way that the profound potential for climate change to act a vehicle for social transformation becomes an ideologically driven focus above and beyond the objective conditions of climate change.
 
An illustration of the problem.
 
Carbon Trading A Critical Conversation on Climate Change, Privatisation and Power edited by Larry Lohmann, makes the case convincingly that the UN, governments, academics and many environmentalists are united around an essentially neoliberal response to climate change in which the Northern elite is manoeuvring to defend its power over the global atmospheric commons and thus contain the threat of the radical transformation of scion-economic forces potential in the problem of climate change. I agree with this reading. A central plank of the 'technological fix' element of this neoliberal discourse is carbon capture and sequestration. We see the US Department of Energy teaming up with oil majors to fund research in this area - thus rather than seeking to reduce and replace fossil fuel use a prominent proposed 'fix' to the climate change problem is actually an enabler of increasing fossil fuel use - a "little tested and hazardous techno-fix". Aren't techno-fixes a perpetuation of the thinking that got us to where we are? Shouldn't we oppose such funding for research into sequestration projects as dangerous business-as-usual? Shouldn't we oppose the construction of coal power stations per se, even those employing 'clean coal technology'?
 
China is expected to construct the generating equivalent of 150 new 1000mw coal plants by 2010, a further 168 by 2020, with lifetime emissions of 25bn tons of carbon. This is within the limit of the timeframe we have to mitigate catastrophic climate change. These are conventional coal-fire plants with which, for technical reasons, carbon capture and sequestration are not possible. The International Energy Agency projects that China will become the world’s largest source of carbon dioxide emissions in 2009, overtaking the United States nearly a decade earlier than previously anticipated. Coal is expected to be responsible for three-quarters of that carbon dioxide. China has 13% of the world's coal reserves. It is increasingly dependent on imported oil. In the event of a oil importation supply crunch China would undoubtedly ratchet up its already ambitious program of producing synthetic oil from coal (it's current program aims to produce 10% of national requirements by 2020). For those of us who expect an earlier rather than a later supply crisis in world oil reserves, it is well before 2020, thus China may increase its use of coal above current projections.
 
Coal gasification plants produce cleaner power with emissions comparable to natural gas and potentially can use capture and storage technology. They cost about 10% to 20% more per megawatt than old style coal-fired power plants (see www.thepeakist.com/chinas-coal-future/). Estimates for including carbon capture and storage technology are in the region of 40% more. Before the break up of the Chinese State Power Corporation in 2002 into quasi-private corporations China was set to develop cleaner coal technology. Now subject to market forces, in the absence of an imposed cost for carbon and\or the reduction of the price gasification and storage technology to market competitive levels the 218 proposed plants will not be amenable to reduced carbon emissions through technological means during their operating lifetimes. David Hawkins points out (Kolbert 2006) that contrary to the argument for US inaction in the face of the China's enormous emissions growth the US should forge ahead technologically and with a regulatory framework because history shows that where America goes China will follow. This is because, firstly, the conditions motivating regulation are objective - urban pollution from car exhausts, or sulphur dioxide pollution from power plants for example - China is now regulating for these just as the US previously did. On a practical level US R&D and market economies of scale both drive the price of the technology down (sulphur dioxide scrubbers today, coal gasification and carbon capture technology tomorrow) and China can regulate in the knowledge of an existing tried and tested technological solution. No new coal fired plants have been built in the US for some time, but new plants are on the horizon (the Pentagon is also funding the development of coal-to-liquid fuel technology as it intends the US military to free itself from dependence on imported oil http://www.thepeakist.com/pentagon-announce-plan-to-secure-fuel-for-us-war-machine/). David Hawkins argues the US should regulate so that no new plants should be allowed except those that employ carbon capture technology, therefore kick-starting Chinese use of the technology within a time frame to impact on the 13 coming years of coal plant development and reduce emissions from them within the timeframe for action on claimte change.
 
I ask again, shouldn't we oppose funding for research into sequestration projects as dangerous business-as-usual? Shouldn't we oppose the construction of coal power stations per se, even those employing 'clean coal technology'?
 
To head off a couple of points, I am fully aware of the technological uncertainties and potential dangers of sequestration. Chinese geologists have given a preliminary estimation of storage space in oil fields and aquifers for more than a trillion tons of carbon dioxide–more than China could emit at their current rate for hundreds of years. I don't think anyone would suggest that it is realistic to think 218,000 mw capacity could be provided by renewables in China over the next 13 years.
 
The possible scenarios it seems to me are 1) status quo, the capacity is provided by dirty coal plants 2) capacity provided by clean coal plants with the potential for sequestration 3) the capacity is not built due to economic collapse, either apocalyptic, in which case emissions drop, or not, in which case lack of investment is likely to mean the existing capacity carries on emitting beyond its currently assumed lifetime.
 
I look forward to your thoughts.
 
Dan Welch
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Discussion list for the Crisis Forum [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Chris
Sent: 01 February 2007 16:01
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Running a Temperature - an action plan for the eco-crisis

Hi Boris
 
Ok, the technology thing - it isn't anything I can cover off quickly, and so I don't know if it would be right of me to use this list to start expounding my beliefs. Perhaps we can discuss it elsewhere. But, for this episode at least, I have started, so I'll finish, with apologies to all uninterested parties.
 
My feelings about this are simply that - thoughts and impressions, not a dogmatic blueprint for 'how it should be'. However, I think industrial technology is not only life threatening in the longer term, but that it also leads to what Habermass has described as a 'maimed and truncated existence'.
 
My PhD is concerned with the ideas of a 'safe limit' to warming, a critique of the idea that climate change is, like everything else in the world, amenable to control through a range of industrial management techniques. "X amount of CO2 = X amount of warming = X amount of danger" is the equation underpinning every response to climate change I have encountered to date and such an approach seems predicated  on the desire to maintain the dominance of technology, science and capital. And yet if anything would require a truly revolutionary response, I would have thought climate change would be it.
 
So, over to you Boris (and the use of 'you' does not indicate any ad hominen element to this) - how does one increase automation ( an idea I saw on your website as part of the solution to our current predicament) without reproducing the current  order? After all, I would have thought people must be educated, shaped, trained and disciplined to ensure maintenance of the machines, hierarchies kept in place, timetables kept to etc - which all seems pretty similar to the current state of affairs.
 
Best
 
Chris
 
From: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Boris Kelly-Gerreyn
To: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: Running a Temperature - an action plan for the eco-crisis

Hi Chris

thanks very much for your nice e-mail.  And thanks for the support.

I am interested though in why you are suspicious of the role of technology.  I am aware that you have posted on this in the past but I'm not sure whether I fully understood your particular angle.  I suppose one question might be about what you define as technology... a simple tool such as a hammer or are you thinking more industrially e.g. robotic arms in an assembly plant, transport etc. Is the issue to do with technology as a distraction/hindrance to human existence and fulfilment or is there something I am missing?

Maybe we should discuss this offline but I hope this may be useful for others to know too, assuming they don't already.

Cheers Boris

At 11:50 01/02/2007, you wrote:
Hi Boris
 
I apologise unreservedly for any ad hominen elements in my reply - I try and always maintain conviviality in such discussions and I failed in that instance.
 
I was very impressed with your site and indeed before posting my message had already ordered a copy of the book - I am totally committed to supporting all responses to this problem which are predicated on a degree of political consciousness. I guess perhaps that was why I got a bit carried away when I saw the statement about increased automation being a route to human emancipation - I was disappointed to come a cross a statement which seems to assume a maintenance of the industrial order as part of the solution. I am coming to this from a sort of Frankfurt school critique of the enlightenment project and thus am suspicious of how technology can have any role in the creation of an authentic existence.
 
Anyway, I look forward to receiving the book and keep up the good work.
 
Chris
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Boris Kelly-Gerreyn
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: Running a Temperature - an action plan for the eco-crisis

hi Chris

I'm not sure what you mean by old school (ad hominem possibly? or what you base your statement regarding automation on.  However,  an 'authentic' human existence will be ushered in not on the back of automation but on the back of social and political change.  It's not about technology it's about social (and therefore cultural political economic etc) relations. The work of AWTW is to try and bring this change about. As such they provide political/economic analysis on the problems we face (whether they be climate, pensions, health etc) and come up with action plans... I myself find it very hard to disagree with their action plan for the eco-crisis we face... try and get a copy of running a temperature and see what you think (incidentally, it promotes among other things, contraction and convergence)

Cheers
Boris

At 12:55 31/01/2007, you wrote:
I see that on the AWTW website that this is a strictly old skool marxist approach to the problem, predicated on the belief that an authentic human existence will be ushered in on the back of increased automation of industrial processes. I can understand H.G Wells or Issac Asimov proposing such an idea but, in all seriousness, how could anyone today be proposing salvation through robots?

 
Chris

 
----- Original Message -----
From: Boris Kelly-Gerreyn
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 10:03 AM
Subject: Running a Temperature - an action plan for the eco-crisis
Dear Forum, A prescription I hope you may read, follow and pass on... Cheers Boris



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Dr. Boris Kelly-Gerreyn

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Ocean Biogeochemistry & Ecosystems
National Oceanography Centre, Southampton
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Southampton, SO14 3ZH, UK
Tel : +44 (0) 2380 596334
Sec : +44 (0) 2380 596015
Fax : +44 (0) 2380 596247
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This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and intended solely for
the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. Both NERC and
the University of Southampton (who operate NOCS as a collaboration) are
subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2000.  The information contained
in this e-mail and any reply you make may be disclosed unless it is legally
exempt from disclosure. Any material supplied to NOCS may be stored in the
electronic records management system of either the University or NERC as
appropriate.


Dr. Boris Kelly-Gerreyn

Voiced with Dragon
NaturallySpeaking v9

Ocean Biogeochemistry & Ecosystems
National Oceanography Centre, Southampton
Waterfront Campus, European Way
Southampton, SO14 3ZH, UK
Tel : +44 (0) 2380 596334
Sec : +44 (0) 2380 596015
Fax : +44 (0) 2380 596247
e-m: [log in to unmask]

This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and intended solely for
the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. Both NERC and
the University of Southampton (who operate NOCS as a collaboration) are
subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2000.  The information contained
in this e-mail and any reply you make may be disclosed unless it is legally
exempt from disclosure. Any material supplied to NOCS may be stored in the
electronic records management system of either the University or NERC as
appropriate.


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This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and intended
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is
addressed. Both NERC and the University of Southampton (who
operate NOCS as a collaboration) are subject to the Freedom of
Information Act 2000. The information contained in this e-mail
and any reply you make may be disclosed unless it is legally
exempt from disclosure. Any material supplied to NOCS may be
stored in the electronic records management system of either the
University or NERC as appropriate.