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If this 'thread' began with a question about a charm which names Jesus, it might be relevant for me to recommend a recent book, Jonathan Roper's 'English Verbal Charms' (Helsinki, 2005, ISBN 951-41-0968-6). This discusses a considerable number of traditional charms (from a database of about 500), a high proportion being noticeably Christian in their references. There are pan-European links, especially for the pre-Reformation ones, which can be hunted up through his bibliography. In general, it can be said that traditional magic intended as helpful to the individual or the community is (in Europe) rich in Christian elements and references, and that the practitioners saw no conflict between (say) healing charms or thief-punishing charms and their Christian beliefs. I can also recommend the various books of Owen Davies on Cunning Men/Women for insights into this. And Will Ryan on Russian folk magic gives a very similar picture. I am unfortunately not able to recommend studies on Islamic magical practice, but I would be prepared to bet that it dovetails into Islamic religioin in much the same way. Probably Muslims who are horrified at the term 'witch' are equating it with some Arabic word referring to the practice of magic for harmful anti-social purposes. It's hard enough to discuss these matters within one's own langusge and culture -- mental translation must make things far worse! Jacqueline Simpson --- jason winslade <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > I think a lot of this categorization revolves around > the debate between 'religion' and 'practice' in > witchcraft. Specifically, that folk practices were > subsumed under whatever religion ruled the day. > Mogg's original example seems to me to fall under > the category, 'use what you're given' - the name of > power in that context is Jesus. Same reason why > stolen hosts and other Christian items were used in > magical spells. The idea is that before the folk > were converted to Christianity, other names were > used, Diana, Hecate, for example. Though I'm not > sure if there's any evidence for that beyond > fantasy. Makes sense to me, though. > > diane yoder <[log in to unmask]> wrote: I can > also say I've never heard of a "Muslim witch." The > Muslims I speak to would be rather horrified about > this as they are against "djinn" and "magic". > > A "Christian" witch is scoffed at by other Wiccans > who seem to by and large (now, I cannot prove this > academically except to say I've been in a lot of > Wiccan chats) to laugh at what they perceive as the > confusion of being a "Christian witch." It seems > that to some it is akin to simply "being confused" > about what you want to be, because of the > longstanding tiff between Christians and witches > courtesy of the very Christian Sprenger and his > Malleus Maleficarum. What was spooky to me was the > introduction, written in 1920 by a Pope who thought > Sprenger had a great idea in writing the Malleus in > the first place, and that witch hunting ought to be > more aggressively pursued than it was. > > I am sure there is an anthropological take on this > too. > > Again, looking forward to what the rest of you > think. As a Wiccan, mine is only one point of view. > (And I can't believe I just paid 250.00 for the new > two volume edition of the Malleus Maleficarum newly > redone and with scholarly notes vis a vis Oxford > University!!) > > Diane Yoder > MA candidate, Religion and Literature > Antioch University-McGregor > > On 12/2/06, diane yoder < [log in to unmask]> > wrote:I think also, what needs to be taken into > account re: Malleus Maleficarum is that the term > "witch" is a Christian construct. I wonder if those > who would practice what Mogg described below would > not have considered themselves "witches" per > se....it would be other Christians pointing a finger > and screaming "Witch" that would be the rule of the > day. > > So perhaps in terms of self-identification, > "witchcraft" as we know it today in which people > such as myself are no longer afraid to say "I'm a > witch" (meaning "Wiccan"...is a modern > construct--and even some Wiccans hesitate to use the > word "witch" because of its historically negative > connotations). > > During the Salem witchcraft trials, Cotton Mather, > et. al. were using the "Rules" of European witch > hunting a la Sprenger et. al. as a guide to > "identifying" what a witch was/looked like because > apparently, they didn't know without the "rules." > (See Mather's Wonders of the Invisible World). So > would it be proper to even say such rural > practitioners were self-identified as "witches?" > Reading "trial" records, it seems these people were > pretty sincere in their denials that they were > witches. > > What do you all think? > > Diane Yoder > Antioch University-McGregor > Yellow Springs, OH > > On 12/1/06, Mandrake of Oxford < > [log in to unmask]> wrote: Dear Friend > > I guess that before the twentieth century most > european witches were christian - > although perhaps the theology is unorthodox eg: > from 'Secret of Secrets': > 'Hail thou holy herb growing on the ground > thou heals many a grief and staunces many a wound > in the name of Jesus Christ I pluck you from the > ground.' > > so perhaps 'pagan' witchcraft is a modern thing? > and indeed there is no fundamental reason why a > magician or witch shoould not a christian or indeed > muslim be ?? > Some sabbatics still have 'christian' affiliations > > > 'love and do what you will' > > mogg > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic > [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On > Behalf Of anna hudson > Sent: 02 December 2006 08:54 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Christian/muslim > witches > > > > What do people think re other ( than pagan > that is) religious witches, such as christian or > muslim witches (witch being defined as self > identified and a practioner of magic/the > Craft)?Are these taken to be pagan witches who > include in their pantheon symbols and Gods of the > 'Great' religions....or ex Christians/muslim who > have converted to paganism and witchcraft. > If a christian witch is seen as valid..then what > can be said about for instance christian muslims? > If paganism is seen as a religion can a > christian/muslim witch be??? > Anna > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > From: Khem Caigan <[log in to unmask]> > Reply-To: Society for The Academic Study of > Magic <[log in to unmask]> > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Defining Magic > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:56:11 -0400 > >Christopher Kimberley doth schriebble: > >> Magic, as usually defined, is a technology > which is either > >>accessible to > >>everyone or to a set of a population that has > defining > >>characteristics. > > > >And thus the term, *magike techne*. > > > >Cors in Manu Domine, > > > > > >~ Khem Caigan > ><[log in to unmask]> > > > > --------------------------------- > Windows Live™ Messenger has arrived. Click here > to download it for free! > > > > > > > -- > See Religion and Literature at > http://northropfryefan.googlepages.com/home > > Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night, > God said: "Let Newton be!", and all was light. > Alexander Pope (1688-1744) English poet. > > > > -- > See Religion and Literature at > http://northropfryefan.googlepages.com/home > > Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night, > God said: "Let Newton be!", and all was light. > Alexander Pope (1688-1744) English poet. > > > --------------------------------- > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com