I'm glad my earlier email finally got posted (even though I didn't see it). I sent it way at the beginning of all this and for some reason it took a while to get there.

Anyway, I would refer to Wouter Hanegraff's call for 'methodological atheism' in the study of Western Esotericism, which was reiterated at the last AAR conference. Although I disagreed with him on certain counts - I'm a performance theorist and I think neglecting practice and practitioner's beliefs on the whole is a mistake - I do support the notion that making a statement in an academic context that is solely based on personal belief or based on uncritically repeating the beliefs of who you are studying is a problem. How is the belief in God - especially how Yeats conceived it - even remotely 'universal'?! Even within the Golden Dawn, that concept varied widely, even among those who considered themselves Christian.

For instance, I think Goddess-oriented Pagans would have a huge problem of conceiving of God this way, even if they consider Yeats a 'great magician.' And despite what often gets stated, there's a huge crossover between pagans and ceremonial magicians. One can certainly talk about cross-cultural currents, like the divine feminine and its influence on beliefs and practices, but you can't 'preach it' - as if it were unquestionable Truth - and expect to be taken seriously in an academic setting.

mina <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
This is not a personal belief but the universal one about the Divine feminine, the  hidden Goddess in Yeats's poetry. I have many and oldest references as I wrote. I want to say that Yeats is not a personal but universal poet and adept. I got a message as a result of academic study but it seems to be from a miracle and magic one. Therefore it is important message for us to research and follow the real magic in our age. Nowadays, Yeats looks like a defeated magician and only a poet. Do you think so? However, we can study and share about Yeats's message for his descendants based on his poetry books not a personal belief. Then do you think Yeats's belief about Immortal Rose is from personal belief?  I got already many references, but you said that it is my personal belief. I have told about Universal message in symbols of the greatest adept and white magician's magic poetry.          
 
       Mina
 
 


Al Billings <[log in to unmask]> ¾²±â:
mina wrote:
> Al,
> How can you prove Magic and God in here then?

You can't and that isn't the purpose of this list. This is an academic
list, not a religious practitioners list, regardless of the beliefs of
some members.

> Do You believe in God or not?

Not in the slightest depending on what the word "God" is supposed to
mean in your context? It is a word without any specific meaning.

Do I believe in a monotheistic (singular) divine creator of the cosmos
that exists outside or beyond said cosmos? Absolutely not. Why should I?
Because a 2,000 year old book says I should?

> People can't prove God and Christ, but there are a lot of Christians
> in the world.

True but this is an academic list, not a Christian list. If you want to
discuss the existence of Christians, their beliefs, why they believe
what they do, in an academic manner, please feel free. If you want to
have a theological debate based on personal beliefs, this probably isn't
the place.

> I think that human is prove of God, certainly.
> Man can embody but man cannot know it until God shows.
> Therefore, God shows something for the chosen man to tell it. Yeats I
> think was chosen as he showed. We don't need any evidence to believe
> if God allows for us to see it.
> Even Christ showed magic for people to believe but many people don't
> believed
> him. Therefore, how can I give a prove.

I guess you aren't an academic then?

I know I sound like some kind of imperalistic atheist (and I'm not as a
member of the OTO, a former Hermetic magician and a Vajrayana
practitioner on my own time) but this is supposed to be a space for
discussing the academic study of magic (see the title of the list), not
one's personal beliefs unless they relate to the former.

Al

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