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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Postings at the New Liturgical Movement blog and CIEL website have described some re-creations of medieval liturgies in recent workshops and seminars. You can find samples of Sarum and Ambrosian liturgies on youtube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21pnAoiGnjs and the related links there. There was a re-creation of the Use of York as well recently posted, but I don't recall seeing any video postings for that. More of these are in the planning stages. This is not exactly your fantasy, which sounds delightful, but perhaps of some interest. Stan Metheny ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Bugslag" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 7:44 PM Subject: Re: [M-R] More on Liturgy > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > Every time such liturgical considerations crop up, I wistfully fantasize > about some > enterprising soul making a series of films on the medieval liturgy, in > appropriate > medieval churches that have retained a modicum of their medieval > liturgical > arrangments, and with knowledgeable commentary. It would be so helpful, > not just > for students, but for all medievalists, to be able to go through a > particular sort of > mass -- a duplex, for example -- and then compare it with some other type, > or to > witness a particular monastic office. Perhaps, however, such films, or > DVDs, or > whatever, exist already. Does anyone know of any? And if not, are there > any such > enterprising souls out there? > Cheers, > Jim Bugslag > > On 7 Nov 2006 at 22:27, John Briggs wrote: > >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture >> >> John Wickstrom wrote: >> > >> > Cyrille Vogel's Medieval Liturgy as revised by William Storey and >> > Niels Rasmussen (1986) is the best one volume presentation of >> > medieval liturgy I've seen. >> >> Thanks - I've ordered a copy, although why the keenest price should be in >> Rochester, NY is one of mysteries of life! But Harper (Forms and Orders) >> says that Vogel concentrates on the Mass, and doesn't really deal with >> the >> Office. >> >> > Andrew Hughes, Medieval Manuscripts for Mass and Office has a good >> > introductory section (1982). >> >> I'm struggling with this. It seems to be a besetting sin of >> liturgiologists >> to devise their own complicated mnemonic systems of abbreviations, >> symbols >> and typefaces (cf Frere). >> >> > Another volume, the best for detailed discussion of the medieval >> > office (despite its specialized title) is volume VI of >> > >> > J.B.L. Tollhurst, The Monastic Breviary for Hyde Abbey (1942) >> > subsequently published (1993) as a separate volume: Introduction to >> > the English Monastic Breviaries. >> >> I'm *really* struggling with that one. I think that Tolhurst had spent >> so >> long with the medieval liturgy that he had absorbed the scholastic cast >> of >> thought, and was incapable of writing any other way. (I find this >> problem >> with Frere, as well.) I find that Tolhurst explains things in >> considerable >> detail, but with an almost complete absence of clarity. Not to mention >> neglecting to explain *why* he is explaining what he is. Obviously, a >> lot >> of knowledge is assumed - but there is not much clue as to what that >> might >> be! >> >> Where simple things *are* explained clearly, the authorities don't >> always >> agree. Take the liturgical day, which is where we came in. Tolhurst >> baldly >> states that the liturgical day starts the evening before. No exceptions. >> No >> suggestion that ferias might be different. Hughes states that by the end >> of >> the medieval period, the liturgical day was regarded as starting at >> midnight. Which leaves him at a bit of a loss to explain why feasts >> might >> still behave as they do. Harper states (with admirable clarity) that >> ferias >> start at midnight, that simple feasts start with their vespers the day >> before, and that double feasts have first vespers the day before, and >> second >> vespers on the day itself. This is all well and good, but one is left >> with a >> nagging suspicion that it might be an oversimplification! Nobody seems >> confident about compline... >> >> Hughes says that Harper's Forms and Orders is a book that he wished he >> himself had written. Given the complexity of his own book, one might >> perhaps be permitted some scepticism... Of course, Harper may not have >> been >> overburdened with knowledge when he wrote his book. Many years later, at >> a >> meeting this year of the Plainsong and Medieval Music Society, he gave a >> dazzling virtuoso presentation of the results of his recent research into >> reconstructing the choral forces for the whole liturgy of Rochester >> Cathedral c.1544 - and succeeded in confusing everybody, including >> himself! >> I am still staring at the handout and can't decide whether two columns >> have >> become interchanged or not! >> >> John Briggs >> >> ********************************************************************** >> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME >> to: [log in to unmask] >> To send a message to the list, address it to: >> [log in to unmask] >> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion >> to: [log in to unmask] >> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: >> [log in to unmask] >> For further information, visit our web site: >> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > ********************************************************************** > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] > For further information, visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html