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whilst i initially welcomed the discussion on 'honesty in science' and the 'decline of science' (which i feel is more aptly named - the decling number of scientists), it seems to have been derailed and no longer relates to the real crises i thought we were here to discuss. feel free to debate my comments. as a physicist i am only too aware of of the problems facing physics and science in general, and how both the issues of fewer numbers of undergraduates may lead either to fewer depts (and therefore less research) or the intake of students with lower standards than were previously accepted (and therefore the impact that might have on the quality and scope of future research), or even possibly both. but i don't understand these attacks on the honesty in science, and the supposed teaching of fallacies in physics. how does this connect to global crises? there seems to be a lot of 'philosophy' and little fact at the moment. i would prefer to keep some context to these discussions and for the comments to be made about things in which people either have some experience/understanding, or can genuinely assert their accusations/facts/stories. the internet is a vast resource for both facts and myths, and so links are easy to come by to back up anything. the reason for writing this, is that i am finding some messages too abstract and too irrelevant to what 'I' thought the purpose of this list was for? i may be wrong of course! but i would like to discuss facts about real physical crises in a manner which allows us to talk about the causes of the crises and the solutions. best. Jonathan