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"You don't see shamen talking about techniques" that's not exactly conclusive evidence...... when there are numerous books, magazine articles and lectures available about shamanism, and several shamanic residential training places in the UK alone, offering all manner of courses, and if one goes to most New Age -type events there will often be wall-to-wall people claiming to be shamans.... personally i find it much harder to find magicians to talk to than shamans dave e ----- Original Message ----- From: stevejudd To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:02 PM Subject: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Definitions of Magic Just a contribution:- At the Big Green Gathering last week a spontaneous conversation between neo-pagans, astrologers and wiccans took place in the Earth Energies area as to the difference between magic and shamanism. After an hour or so the question was basically settled when an elderly neo-pagan stated 'Magicians talk the walk, but shamen walk the talk. You don't see shamen talking about techniques'. And perhaps a more contemporary definition of magic might be found in 'Where Science and Magic Meet', by Serena Rhoney-Dougal, the first person to gain a PhD in parapsychology. Regards, Steve www.stevejudd.com MA Cultural Astronomy and Astrology