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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Chris Crockett wrote: 'there is no such Pivital Moment in the History of Art.' There is in England. It's called the Reformation. And as far as I'm concerned if we're going for 'the Renaissance started on January 10 1409'-type exercises (I honestly read that sentence, or something very close to it, in a textbook as an undergrad), that's where 'medieval' ends - not 1485. Yet it's also right that the Reformation was a very medieval moment. It was a church reform movement led by the king and the Ardship Cambry - nothing new there. Tensions between king and church not new either. Neither was the dissolving of monastic houses, though not quite that radically.... nor the methods used: Visitation, etc... . Converting all those monastic cathedrals to secular ones merely put right a historic aberration that itself could be said to mark the transition from 'Dark Ages' to 'Medieval' in England... but that's another topic! The dividing line between Italian Renaissance and other c15 art forms I have never quite 'got'. It is a late medieval 'national' style (the 'national' style of a handful of Italian city-states), like so many others. Its works of art are altarpieces, reredoses, all the stuff we discuss. It's wonderful, and extraordinary in its implications for all kinds of reasons, but it's still one of many varieties of late medieval religious art.... Phew. Two hobby horses ridden. Or perhaps several, none properly broken in and all likely to run off in directions I'd regret. Curses - metaphor took over again... Jon -----Original Message----- From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Christopher Crockett Sent: 25 July 2006 14:18 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [M-R] Dark Ages medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture From: [log in to unmask] >>[Dave Postles] Putting aside the Renaissance rhetoric, it would be interesting to me (if not others!) how we now variously consider the relationship between late-medieval and early-modern: transition or transformation? in what spheres (social/economic/cultural - the last including religion, ahem)? >[fmorgret] In my study of the Lutheran Reformation from 1525 to 1530 I keep stumbling over so many medieval roots -- not just in theology, although there surely are enough of them, but also in law, architecture, hymnody, and agriculture -- that I cannot get the grass stains off my knees. i think that we will find that Religion is one of the very few areas mentioned where anything like a clean break (with a more or less specific date, =/- 30 years or so) can be rationally defended. obviously, whatever specific date for its inception might be chosen (and i'd suggest choosing one which was not nation-specific), the Reformation was both a watershed and a tsunami. there is no such Pivital Moment in the History of Art. in Italy --which is to say, in particular cities/regions in Italy-- the "Re-Naissance" [i.e., the "Rebirth" of Classical Forms in both architecture and the figurative arts] seems to have begun and gotten a good foothold in Florence and a few other places and, by the end of the 15th c., metasticized throughout the "country", the New (i.e., Ancient) Style driving out the Old in a Revolution which was both widespread in geographical scope and comprehensive. but, in the North, there is a virtually Seemless Flow in the pictorial arts from the inception/reception of the "Gothic" style in the 12th/13th cc. through the 16th c. (at the least). this is most true in architecture, though in France (and countries under more or less immediate French influence) we certainly see a strong influence comming from across the Alps in what we might call the *decorative* elements of/on buildings which, though very prominent visibly, are actually secondary to the *essence* of the buildings being built in the reign of Francis I and his immediate sucessors. a case in point is the magnificent, cathedral-sized church of St. Eustache in Paris (long the parish church of Les Halles, now the parish church of the Utterly Souless and Pathetic "Centre Pomiebourgeois") : http://www.hberlioz.com/Paris/BPStEustache.html Begun in the East (apse) end http://www.hberlioz.com/Paris/St_Eustache1.html we have round arches, and classical decorative elements rather than Late Gothic ones, but this is, basically, a "Gothic" building, with flying butresses, http://www.hberlioz.com/Paris/St_Eustache4.html "bar tracery" in the windows (and even a "rose" window) http://www.hberlioz.com/Paris/St_Eustache7.html even gargoyles http://www.hberlioz.com/Paris/St_Eustache1.html (the clock is a somewhat later addition, i believe). inside, we have (what else?) *rib* vaults, http://www.hberlioz.com/Paris/St_Eustache5.html http://www.hberlioz.com/Paris/St_Eustache6.html albeit in round rather than pointed arches. unlike in Italy (where classicism really Took Over), these "medieval" elements survived in architecture (which is, by its nature, surely the most Conservative of the Arts) for a very, very long time. though, by the 17th c., the "Renaissance" had gained a Foothold with a Vengence http://www.hberlioz.com/Paris/St_Eustache2.html with particularly Sterile --if not downright Ugly-- results. in Politics, each country was different, of course. i once heard it said that the M.A. didn't really end in Germany until the time of Napoleon. > Obviously, I need expert help. in the interests of List Commity, i will refrain from comment, other than to fully Concur with your Diagnosis. c ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html