Here's a rule: try and consider where a person is coming
from - their standpoint - their place of power within the commmunity or
not. There's a great deal of difference between the frustration of attempting to
get one's concerns heard when one is powerless and attempting to from a position
of power.
Haven't I said all this before?
Sue McPherson
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists
needed....
> Annie
says...
> "For the list as a whole - I am troubled that the tone of some
recent
> exchanges may well be off-putting to other people wanting to read
and
> contribute on the list I wonder if the time is right to re-visit
our
> shared rules/ expectations for postings? What do others think?"
>
> I agree. I think some of the exchanges are offputting
and as a
> result some people have left the list recently. I
also think whilst
> we're discussing power it doesn't mean that the tone
of messages need
> to be accusatory or unpleasant. We don't know
each other's history
> on this list and I agree with Mike that it is
better to be mindful of
> this when talking together.
>
> I
would be interested to see people's ideas about shared rules for
>
postings. I particularly would like to see some mention within
said
> rules/expectations around encouraging debate without
situations
> arising where any member might feel victimised or bullied.
>
>
>
> ---- Original Message ----
> From:
[log in to unmask]
>
To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] Careers Re: 10000
more
> psychologists needed....
> Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 23:57:53
+0100
>
> >Hi Sue ( and others),
> >
> >For
the list as a whole - I am troubled that the tone of some recent
>
>exchanges may well be off-putting to other people wanting to
read
> >and contribute on the list I wonder if the time is right to
re-visit
> >our shared rules/ expectations for postings? What do
others think?
> >
> >Meantime I'm going to refrain from more
contributions for a while and
> >leave space for others. I'd be
interested in peoples' views about my
> >comments on Layard.. and how
those interested in community psychology
> >might help to redress the
balance regarding the current political
> >emphasis on therapeutic
psychology. How can we make a stronger case
> >for more teaching and
learning about community psychology? How can we
> >act together to
provide it? or am I off the mark in being concerned?
> >
>
>For Sue - I was musing on your message, not ignoring it. I did feel
>
>accused but no doubt you had your reasons. And I felt grateful to
>
>Mike for his comment which to me seemed wise and non-accusatory.
As
> >you don't know me personally, maybe I seem to represent
those who in
> >your experience just carry on as usual and ignore what
is going on.
> >Those with more access to power and influence do often
seem to ignore
> >what is going on for those with less power and I
certainly regret the
> >times I do that, and I want to try to do that
less, just as I feel
> >distressed when others do that to me, and
I want them to do it less.
> >
> >
> >Annie
>
>
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: The
UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of Sue
>
>McPherson
> >Sent: Mon 03/07/2006 18:17
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more
psychologists needed....
> >
> >Next time you wish to make a
confession, sit on Annie's post, or
> >anyone's but not mine.
>
>You're intelligent enough, surely, to see how that might have been
>
>seen by others. It certainly did come across as meaning that I had
>
>been accusing Annie, and accusing her unjustly, in your view. That
is
> >unacceptable to me.
> >
> >I had intended to
send the above to you personally, Michael, in
> >response to your
private message, but I think it needs to be said to
> >the list. I had
raised what I thought were valid concerns, to Annie,
> >and she has
ignored that post, the one you chose to place your own
> >comment on,
about "making judgements." I made no personal attack on
>
>Annie. We were talking about power. And if you - and she -
are
> >using your power in ways that undermine what I am trying to say
and
> >do, then that is a misuse of your power, both of you.
>
>
> >Sue McPherson
> >
> >
> >-----
Original Message -----
> >From: "Michael Swindlehurst" <[log in to unmask]>
> >To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 7:08 PM
>
>Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
>
>
> >
> >> I am guilty of making wrong judgements on
people I know little or
> >nothing
> >> about. Those I
attack today I may sorely need tomorrow.
> >>
> >> Mike
S
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message
-----
> >> From: "Sue McPherson" <[log in to unmask]>
> >> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >> Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 4:23 PM
>
>> Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
>
>>
> >>
> >> > When I say "work" I didn't
mean that it had to be about
> >relationships at
> >> >
work but just about work itself. People can seek some kind of
>
>talking
> >> > therapy just to deal with issues of gaining
confidence, even
> >travelling to
> >> > work in strange
cities, or the effect that not having work has on
> >one's
>
>> > life. So, nothing to do with relationships necessarily. But
no,
> >I don't
> >> > think it is easy to dismiss things
like "work" that are so
> >important. I
> >> > think it
is a sign of where you - and many psychologists - are
> >coming
> >> > from - your standpoint. Once you have the career, it
is
> >relationships that
> >> > become important. In
fact, most people up there would say
> >relationships
> >>
> are what are most important in life - just as you did - and that
>
>simply reflects
> >> > the power you have to impose your own
point of view.
> >> >
> >> > I didn't know
psychology was a "talk therapy." I though it was
> >more about
>
>> > using the rorsach test and other psychological tests to
figure
> >out where a
> >> > person was at, then apply
the dsm and label them. If this govt
> >document
> >> >
suggested that people wanted more talk therapy why on earth
> >wouldf
they
> >> > suggest ten thousand psychologists. That is so
ridiculous! -
> >even if some
> >> > of them dod
do talk therapy. There are so many other kinds of
> >therapy.
>
>> > What is it with these people!
> >> >
>
>> > Re injustice: some people are more vulnerable than others
to
> >injustice.
> >> > eg,
> >> >
speaking of women, those without a husband; or without property,
> >(or
job,
> >> > of course) or without family nearby; or, if
they are older, and
> >not sexually
> >> > active.
How do you fit in there? I have nothing. Just two
> >degrees - a
4
> >> > year BA and a 2 yr MA. They took me longer, but that's
what they
> >are. And
> >> > I
> >> > am
treated in this country like a piece of shit.
> >> >
>
>> > Oh, did we forget anger management - psychologists must be
very
> >good at
> >> > trying to pass that one off on
the victim, don't you think?
> >> >
> >> > And I
think that saying sorry isn't enough. Not when so much
> >damage has
> >> > been
> >> > done to my life here. Things
aren't that much better in Canada,
> >but here
> >> >
is
> >> > worse - the class system is worse. I live in despair,
but no
> >fucking
> >> > psychologist can help
me.
> >> >
> >> > I recall someone in Canada who
was doing research on a man who,
> >one day,
> >> >
up
> >> > and killed his wife and teenage children. He had lost
his job and
> >their
> >> > beautiful home and middle
class lifestyle would have been the
> >next to go.
> >>
> So
> >> > he decided to end it all for them so they would
not have to
> >suffer. In the
> >> > study this
researcher conducted, she explored the feelings of
> >people in
> >> > the
> >> > community to see how they coped
with tragedy. One said, We had no
> >idea!
> >> >
another said: If only he had come to us! And so on. I know, from
>
>> > experience,
> >> > how it works. People fall away
from you. They don't invite you,
> >they don't
> >> >
make you feel welcome. But they do keep sending literature - from
>
>clubs
> >> > you
> >> > used to go to, as if
you were still welcome but declined to go.
> >They do
> >>
> cruel things, say cruel things, and then, what do you suppose
>
>they say
> >> > when
> >> > you stop looking
at people, when you stop trying to interact with
> >them to
>
>> > protect yourself. I know how it is. And that man's decision
to
> >end his
> >> > family's life may not have seemed
fair, but the pain they would
> >have had
> >> >
to
> >> > endure, and the reduced quality of life, makes one
wonder. People
> >don't
> >> > help
> >>
> when they see you being forced down the social ladder.
> >>
>
> >> > You say, "injustices do happen" - obviously not
in your life to
> >the
> >> > extent
> >>
> it has in mine. Don't pretend you know what I am going through
>
>and what I
> >> > have already been through, at the
university here and in this
> >community,
> >> > which
works to serve the university. Just carry on as you always
> >have,
and
> >> > ignore what's going on..
> >> >
>
>> > And I shall continue to write on Marc Lepine and the
Montreal
> >Massacre -
> >> > essay revised
today.
> >> >
> >> > Sue McPherson
>
>> >
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>
>> > From: "Annie Mitchell" <[log in to unmask]>
> >> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >> > Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 3:45
PM
> >> > Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists
needed....
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hi
Sue,
> >> >
> >> > Thanks for your response. No, I
wasn't feeling victimised. And I
> >agree
> >> >
that
> >> > there is a risk of me just talking to other
psychologists, so it
> >is good
> >> > to
>
>> > have you and Mike active on the list. I agree that
psychologists
> >in work
> >> > do
> >>
> have power, and I worry both about the responsibilities that go
>
>with that
> >> > power and also about the risk of abusing
it..As Mike said on
> >another
> >> > posting, community
psychologists tend to be very critical of
> >ourselves -
>
>> > I
> >> > feel that it is important to be critical
and to remain open to
> >criticism,
> >> > but also to
be forgiving, supportive and enouraging both to
> >ourselves and
> >> > to
> >> > others who share socially
inclusive values but with whom we may
> >not
> >> >
always
> >> > completely agree.
> >> >
>
>> > In my last posting I was just musing aloud really about my
>
>worries, and
> >> > wanting to keep the debate going. . I am
concerned about how we
> >all - (I
> >> > as
>
>> > an individual, us list members as people interested
in
> >psychology and
> >> > all
> >> >
of us as members of society, and the government) are going to
>
>respond to
> >> > Lord Layard's proposals and was stimulated
to write by David's
> >comments
> >> > about the need
for different sorts of training in psychology. .
> >Of course
>
>> > you are right - work is hugely important. Life and humans
are so
> >
> >> > complex -
> >> > as
soon as we focus on one aspect ( eg relationships - and I
>
>meant all
> >> > our
> >> >
relationships, including but not only personal relationships) it
> >is
easy
> >> > in
> >> > doing so to turn attention
away from other things that are also
> >important
> >> >
( eg work).
> >> >
> >> > In the bit where I
mentioned talking therapies for people who are
> >> >
psychologically distressed - there I was referring to Layard,
> >who,
in his
> >> > government report, uses evidence that people want
greater access
> >to
> >> > psychological therapies or
talking therapies as part of his
> >justification
> >> >
for arguing that there should be more public money spent on
> >training
more
> >> > psychologists.
> >> >
> >>
> Regarding employment - I think that there have been good
>
>legislation
> >> > improvements recently regarding equal
opportunities and, where
> >these are
> >> > properly
applied, it should be ability, skills and knowledge that
>
>count;
> >> > it's bad in all sorts of ways to
experience injustice in
> >employment. And
> >> >
of
> >> > course we all know that policies don't always get
properly
> >applied and
> >> > that
> >>
> injustices do happen. And we are all vulnerable to such
>
>injustices - I am
> >> > sorry that you have had bad
experiences in this regard.
> >> >
> >> > For
those who are interested in "New Ways of Working as Applied
> >>
> Psychologists" there is what is called a stakeholder conference,
>
>run by
> >> > the
> >> > British
Psychological Society (BPS) coming up very soon (14th
> >july)
in
> >> > Wolverhampton - further information can be found
on
> >> >
>
>http://www.bps.org.uk/the-society/boardscommittees/professional-pract
>
>ice-boa
> >> >
rd/new_ways_of_working_for_applied_psychologists.cfm-
> >>
>
> >> > Good wishes,
> >> >
> >>
>
> >> > Annie
> >> >
> >>
>
> >> >
> >> > -----Original
Message-----
> >> > From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion
List on behalf of
> >Sue
> >> > McPherson
>
>> > Sent: Sun 02/07/2006 13:08
> >> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >> > Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more
psychologists needed....
> >> >
> >> > Annie
Mitchell
> >> >
> >> > I hope you are not feeling
victimized because I was critical of
> >the
> >> >
motives
> >> > of psychology and other therapies in society. It
should not be
> >forgotten
> >> > that you are the ones
with the power - to encourage others to be
> >> >
inclusive,
> >> > or to dissuade them by your own behaviour. One
way you can make a
> >
> >> > difference
>
>> > is to respond directly to those who approach you with
their
> >concerns. I
> >> > would appreciate it if you
did that, to my post. If you want to
> >challenge
> >> >
social forces at work, that's probably one of the best ways of
> >doing
it.
> >> > Otherwise, it is simply you (psychologists) talking
amongst
> >yourselves
> >> > about
> >>
> "them."
> >> >
> >> > I think that psychology
should be, or could be, a "talking
> >therapy." I'm
> >>
> not
> >> > sure what you're getting at when you mention that
subject - that
> >I am one
> >> > of
> >>
> the psychologically distressed? It is a topic I approached in
my
> >post, if
> >> > I
> >> > recall
correctly. It's actually work that can underly our
> >well-being, in
> >> > my
> >> > view, and not simply personal
relationships, as you suggest.
> >That's
> >> >
probably
> >> > an old-fashioned view that personal relationships
count more. But
> >for
> >> > people
> >>
> who are single, it's work that counts. Believe me! Again,
this
> >seems to
> >> > be
> >> >an
indication of social problems being approached from one
> >perspective
> >> >only.
> >> > To working people with
spouses, what's important appears to be
> >the
> >> >
relationship. But it might not be to people with neither the job
> >nor
the
> >> > relationship.
> >> >
> >>
> And communities don't tend to be inclusive of people with neither
>
>of these
> >> > (job nor relationship). So how are you going
to challenge that
> >kind of
> >> > thinking unless you
start doing it yourself - being inclusive on
> >a
> >> >
discussion list and not simply responding to other psychologists?
>
>> >
> >> > You are the ones with power, as I said. You
set an example by
> >your
> >> > actions.
>
>> > You can simply sit up there and do nothing, and people
will
> >follow your
> >> > example. Of course
personal relationships are important. I agree
> >with
> >>
> that.
> >> > But having a job is what gives you the identity
to be able to
> >relate to
> >> > people on a level
other than "underclass," (unless one is
> >independently
>
>> > wealthy, or can demonstrate ownership of property, or
membership
> >of the
> >> > "right" family).
>
>> >
> >> > To some people, it is the job that matters.
And I know this
> >because it is
> >> > the job -
the lack of one - that holds me back. I applied to the
>
>position
> >> > mentioned on this list recently, for Nigel
Wellman, but even with
> >all the
> >> > research I've
done, what chance do I have? You're right, it is
> >> >
relationships
> >> > that count. One needs the
relationships to get the job. Or is it
> >youth
> >> >
that
> >> > counts. And sexual attractiveness, and all the
possibilities that
> >holds
> >> > with
>
>> > it. Add that one in as another factor I am lacking, by
today's
> >standards.
> >> > Yes, the relationship is
important. It's too bad that it is what
> >counts in
> >>
> todays' world, and not ability, knowledge, and experience.
The
> >> > relationship gets you the job, and the job enables one
to form
> >new
> >> > relationships, and so on, up the
ladder to success.
> >> >
> >> > Sue
McPherson
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
>
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message
-----
> >> > From: "Annie Mitchell" <[log in to unmask]>
> >> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >> > Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 11:15
AM
> >> > Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists
needed....
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
Lord Layard, whose government report advocates training more
>
>clinical
> >> > psychologists so as to support the provision
of more
> >psychological
> >> > therapies, provides an
analysis in his book Happiness (2005), of
> >why in
> >>
> most
> >> > Western countries, including the UK, depression
rates seem to be
> >rising
> >> > and
> >>
> happiness rates not rising despite overall increases in material
>
>> > well-being.
> >> > As an economist he has to
express surprise - political economy
> >> > expectations
>
>> > had been that increases in GDP would bring increases in
citizen
> >well-being
> >> > overall, yet that simply
hasn't happened, at least not in the
> >arena of
> >> >
psychological well-being. He looks at the psychological
> >literature
and
> >> > concludes that social comparisions are an underlying
mechanism:
> >He says
> >> > "We
> >> >
have a good idea why happiness has risen less than was expected:
> >our
norms
> >> > have risen, as other people's incomes have risen and
likewise our
> >own
> >> > experience of comfort. The
central mechanism at work here is our
> >habit of
> >> >
comparision." Now, one possible route for an economist interested
>
>in
> >> > psychology to follow on unearthing this insight
would be to start
> >thinking
> >> > about how
psychology could help in challenging the social forces
> >at
work
> >> > that promote unhelpful expectations and aspirations
and that fuel
> >> > inequalitites, social divisions and war ( eg
the role of
> >advertising, the
> >> > role of the
media, the role of big business and shareholder
> >economics in
>
>> > structuring western society towards ever increasing
expecations
> >of share
> >> > holder rewards, the role
of social denial in the face of huge
> >evidence
> >> >
that
> >> > unsustainable levels of consumption are fuelling
environmental
> >degradation
> >> > and climate
change). Indeed, there is plenty in his analysis to
> >take
us
> >> > along the route in exploring these issues. However, his
advisors
> >from
> >> > mainstream psychology are not
too good at providing help with all
> >of this.
> >> >
Psychology as it has been advanced in the west is largely (
> >though
not
> >> > entirely) the cognitive psychology of the individual,
with a
> >significant
> >> > interest in clinical
psychology in how to change people's
> >thinking -- and
>
>> > given political avoidance of tackling the vested interests
at
> >work in
> >> > advancing the social inequalities
underpinning human distress, it
> >is
> >> >
unsurprising that it is psychological therapy (changing
>
>individuals'
> >> > "faulty" or "unhelpful" ways of
thinking) that is currently
> >attractive
> >> >
politically. If we concentrate on getting the population happy
> >with
things
> >> > as they are, there is less political threat to
those who stand to
> >benefit
> >> > from things being
as they are.
> >> >
> >> > Yet at the same time,
there is plenty of policy analysis in the
> >Uk
> >> >
currently
> >> > that acknowledges the need for more socially
just services and
> >provision -
> >> > the NHS and
public services are inceasingly asked to contribute
> >to
efforts
> >> > challenging social inequalites at a service
provision level -
> >there are
> >> > numerous examples
of policy initiatives such as the Ten Essential
> >Shared
>
>> > Capabailites of the Whole of the Mental Health Workforce
which
> >require us
> >> > to
> >> >
work in ways advocated by community psychology - promoting
>
>partnership.
> >> > prevention and empowerment ... there is
lots of scope for
> >challenging or
> >> > providing a
counter-balance to the current pre-occupation with
>
>individual
> >> > therapy. However, since community
psychology is so marginal to
> >> > professional
>
>> > structures and therefore has no sort of political voice, we
> >don't have
> >> > much
> >> > if any
influence - currently the loudest voices in the applied
>
>clinical
> >> > field are those of cognitive behaviour
therapists. I fully agree
> >with
> >> > David
>
>> > that we need more community psychology at all levels
of
> >psychology
> >> > learning.
> >>
>
> >> > Of course it is the case that people who are
psychologically
> >distressed
> >> > are
>
>> > asking for more talking therapies. We all know that human
>
>relationships
> >> > underpin our well-being ( indeed
Layard's own analysis summarises
> >some of
> >> > the
evidence that this is so). But the evidence is that when
>
>psychological
> >> > therapies are helpful they work through
the provision of
> >effective
> >> > therapeutic
relationships. But the social danger in focussing too
> >much
on
> >> > the provision of "expert" relationships is that we
thereby
> >contribute to
> >> > the
> >>
> diminishing of naturally occuring helpful relationships
within
> >> > communities - we perpetuate the idea that people
cannot help one
> >another
> >> > but
> >>
> instead must rely on "expert" help. Yet as David points out, we
>
>know that
> >> > non-experts can be just as helpful as
trained professionals. (But
> >trained
> >> >
professionals are not keen on exploring that further - we want to
>
>belive
> >> > that our own therapies are special and complex
thereby justifying
> >our own
> >> > existence). Yet
there is evidence, for example in the field of
> >> >
psychological
> >> > debriefing after disasters, that expert
interventions, applied
> >> > uncriitically, can make things
better rather than worse,
> >apparently by
> >> >
interfering with naturally occuring social healing processes.
> >>
>
> >> > I worry as a trainer in clinical psychology that the
debate is
> >polarised -
> >> > how can we contribute to
advancing our social and psychological
> >> > understanding of
the deeper forces underpinning human distress,
> >while at
>
>> > the
> >> > same time adressing the deep human need
for sympathetic humane
> >response
> >> >
to
> >> > psychological distress in human individuals. Where is
the space
> >for public
> >> > health psychology? At the
same time, how do we stop ourselves
> >simply
> >> >
serving
> >> > our own vested interests - especially given the
need to justify
> >the
> >> > relatively large salaries
that clinical psychologists earn? And
> >how we we
>
>> > bring together a genuinely social applied psychology given
the
> >pressures
> >> > and
> >> >
divides within our own discipline - and the various envies and
> >>
> disgruntlements between the different branches of psychology? And
>
>how do
> >> > we
> >> > genuinely work
together with our non-professional psychology
> >colleagues/
>
>> > comrades to contribute to social change? I am aware that
many
> >clinical
> >> > psychologists ( including many
that I have been involved in
> >training) want
> >> > to
apply their critical knowledge of community psycholgy in
> >practice
yet
> >> > experience difficulties in doing so because current
NHS
> >employment
> >> > pressures
> >>
> along with uncritical management acceptance of the evidence base
>
>of what
> >> > works in practice limits the scope of their
activities. It is
> >hard (
> >> > though
>
>> > not impossible) to promote social change from within - it
seems
> >to me that
> >> > we need to work together both
within and without professional
> >structures
> >> >
if
> >> > we are to tip the balance away from simplistic
solutions towards
> >more
> >> > complex analyses of
what will improve our collective well-being.
> >> >
>
>> > Annie
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
-----Original Message-----
> >> > From: The UK Community
Psychology Discussion List on behalf of
> >David Fryer
> >>
> Sent: Sat 01/07/2006 10:54
> >> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >> > Subject: Re: Careers Re: 10000 more
psychologists needed....
> >> >
> >> > Apologies
if my previous posting was misleading for some.
> >> >
>
>> > I am indeed based at Stirling University myself but I
certainly
> >did not
> >> > provide a link to the
Stirling site to stimulate interest in
> >careers via
> >>
> that route. I drew attention to that masters course in the
>
>Department of
> >> > psychology at Stirling, as part of the
debate re 10,000 extra
> >> > psychologists,
> >>
> because it is an example of the newer courses I expect to see
>
>> > proliferating - they are far shorter than clinical courses and
so
> >the
> >> > graduates are far cheaper to produce.
Such shorter courses will
> >inevitably
> >> > cover
less material in less depth than three year clinical
>
>doctorates
> >> > because so much shorter and will provide a
new workforce of
> >psychologists
> >> > for the NHS
which is cheaper than employing clinical
> >psychologists.
>
>> >
> >> > Of course one can take different positions
on such courses. From
> >a
> >> > critical
>
>> > perspective they share many of the problems of mainstream
>
>clinical
> >> > psychology: both are primarily are about
'treating' individuals
> >within a
> >> > medical model
frame of reference through intra-psychic change
> >rather than
>
>> > preventing or addressing collective causes of distress within
a
> >social
> >> > justice frame of reference through
societal change. Both collude
> >with
> >> >
victim
> >> > blaming. Some might argue that three years of
clinical training
> >provides
> >> > more scope for
engaging with more approaches to intervention
> >(some
>
>> > clinical
> >> > courses include modules on
community psychology) and more scope
> >for
> >> >
critical
> >> > reflection on the 'scientific practitioner'
mantra. However,
> >others might
> >> > argue that
because it is shorter the training for a one year
> >masters
has
> >> > less chance for trainees to be socialised into
problematic
> >clinical ways
> >> > and
>
>> > less opportunities for the effectiveness of trainees to be
>
>diminished than
> >> > clinical training (thinking of
Durlak's classic work suggesting
> >that non
> >> >
professionals are often more effective than professionals in
>
>addressing
> >> > psychological difficulties).
>
>> >
> >> > What I would really like to see is more
opportunities to learn
> >about
> >> > critical
community* psychology in the UK as there are in many
> >other
>
>> > countries. Regrettably I cannot currently recommend Stirling
in
> >that
> >> > regard
> >> > to
members of this list. An established undergraduate module in
>
>critical
> >> > community psychology has recently been
discontinued by the
> >University and
> >> > whilst
there is some really good postgraduate critical community
> >> >
psychology
> >> > going on here now that particular work will be
drawing to a close
> >within a
> >> > few months. Whilst
future postgraduate supervision in critical
> >community
>
>> > psychology is available in theory, in practice funding is
very
> >difficult
> >> > indeed to get. Further
community psychological praxis at Stirling
> >
> >> >
involving
> >> > more personnel depends, as elsewhere, upon the
availability of
> >external
> >> > funding but such
funding seldom allows genuinely critical praxis
> >for
>
>> > obvious
> >> > reasons - why would the powerful
fund work fundamentally devoted
> >to
> >> > depowering
it?
> >> >
> >> > David
> >>
>
> >> > * interesting social psychology at Stirling is
developing
> >following the
> >> > relatively recent
appointment of Alex Gillespie
> >> >
> >> >
________________________________
> >> >
> >> >
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of
> >Sue
> >> > McPherson
> >> > Sent: Fri 30/06/2006
13:52
> >> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >> > Subject: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] Careers Re: 10000
more psychologists
> >> > needed....
> >>
>
> >> >
> >> > . . . . .
> >>
>
> >> > Nevertheless, you will have many interested people
(in careers,
> >probably)
> >> > looking at the Stirling
site. It would be better, I am sure, if
> >society is
> >>
> going to get stuck with more top-down cures that there is more
>
>variety.
> >> > .
> >> > . .. Are you
at Stirling, by the way
> >> >
> >> > Sue
McPherson
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
----- Original Message -----
> >> >
> >> > From:
Michael Swindlehurst <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >> > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 11:23 PM
>
>> > Subject: Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
> >>
>
> >> >
> >> > No spelling mistake (on this
occassion) with my use of the word
> >'canon'.
> >> >
This was a reference to the power of religion. The 'barons' refer
> >to
those
> >> > who mostly control our social and economic
structures as well put
> >by Cathy
> >> > and David
below. The intended construction and advance of the 10k
> >may help
> >> > a
> >> > little toward enlightening the
big guns but I fear it is more
> >likely to
> >> >
shield and prolong their reign at even greater loss to us all,
>
>including
> >> > themselves. Our species and planet cannot
cope with these 'valley
> >of
> >> > death'
>
>> > conflicts and inequalities indefinately. I just hope we can
come
> >up with a
> >> > universal light giving brigade
before it is too late for all of
> >us. My
> >> >
hopes
> >> > for this are currently largely with list members and
your allies
> >- most
> >> > people on this planet I
should imagine.
> >> >
> >> > Mike S
>
>> >
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message
-----
> >> > From: David Fryer <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >> > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 3:21 PM
>
>> > Subject: Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
> >>
>
> >> > Who would train the 10,000 psychologists? Yet more
psychologists
> >(to be
> >> > employed and trained to
train) of course.
> >> >
> >> > Would they come
from the same school . . . . I would bet on
> >training
>
>> > primarily to deliver cognitive behaviour therapy to people
>
>diagnosed as
> >> > 'anxious' or 'depressed' . Much easier
(and politically
> >acceptable) to
> >> > offer
>
>> > people psychological snake oil than to change our society
to
> >remove social
> >> > causes of psychological
distress and physical illness like
> >unemployment,
> >>
> stressful employment, domestic violence, racism, heterosexism,
>
>disabling
> >> > practices . . . . .
> >>
>
> >> > If you want to get a glimpse of the likely future
have a look at
> >the MSc
> >> > Psychological Therapy
in Primary Care at Stirling University: "A
> >variety
> >>
> of
> >> > studies by central government and professional
bodies have
> >identified the
> >> > growing demand for
psychological interventions for adults
> >presenting with
>
>> > common mental health disorders (e.g. anxiety and depression)
in
> >NHS
> >> > Primary
> >> > care.
There is also widespread recognition of the difficulties in
>
>meeting
> >> > that demand. This Masters program, delivered
jointly by the
> >Universities
> >> > of
>
>> > Stirling and Dundee has been designed by National Health
Service
> >(NHS)
> >> > professionals and experienced
academics to train people to
> >deliver
> >> >
psychological therapies for common mental health disorders in
> >adults
in
> >> > Primary Care."
> >> > <http://www.psychology.stir.ac.uk/postgrad/propspectus2.php>
> >> > http://www.psychology.stir.ac.uk/postgrad/propspectus2.php
> >> >
> >> > To get back to Tennyson .
. . I too struggled with the light
> >brigade
> >>
> comparison, find the poem's images repugnant on a variety of
>
>levels and
> >> > certainly do not see the 10K psychologists
as the innocent
> >victims. Cathy
> >> > McCormack has
spoken powerfully of the 'war without bullets'
> >being waged
>
>> > against people lower down the social hierarchy by people
higher
> >up it . .
> >> > .
> >> > .a
war being fought with brief cases, policies leading to
>
>widening
> >> > inequalities, stigma, disabling practices and
psy-techniques
> >which lead
> >> > people to
internalise understandings of themselves and their
> >settings
>
>> > which
> >> > are damaging to them and serve the
interests of the status quo.
> >So if we
> >> >
are
> >> > to think in terms of the charge of the light brigade
at all, I
> >suggest
> >> > imagining those advancing
into the valley of death as being those
> >millions
> >>
> of our fellow citizens who epidemiologists have repeatedly shown
>
>have
> >> > shorter, less healthy, more brutalised lives due
to a variety of
> >forms of
> >> > societal inequality
and imagine the the 10,000 psychologists as
> >camped on
>
>> > the sides of the valley operating the CBT cannon to the left
of
> >them, the
> >> > person centred cannon to the
right of them, the stress management
> >cannon
> >> >
in
> >> > front of them and the positive psychology cannon behind
them
> >> >
> >> > As for Marx . . .. I
don't know about others but if my work was
> >described
>
>> > as Marxist I would take it as a compliment . . .
> >>
>
> >> > David
> >> >
> >> >
David Fryer
> >> > Community Psychology Group
> >>
> University of Stirling
> >> > FK9 4LA
> >> >
Scotland
> >> > +44 (0) 1786 467650 (tel)
> >> >
+44 (0) 1786 467641 (fax)
> >> > [log in to unmask]
> >>
>
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> >
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
> >> >
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sue
>
>McPherson
> >> > Sent: 29 June 2006 1:53 pm
> >>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 10000 more
psychologists
> >needed....
> >> >
> >>
>
> >> > I don't know who you are or what you do. Sounds
Marxist to me.
> >I can't
> >> > come up with a
different metaphor at this moment but how about
> >just not
>
>> > seeing the world in terms of them and "us" with psychologists
the
> >innocent
> >> > victims in all this.
>
>> >
> >> > Does not anyone know the theory behind this
- that as people are
> >rewarded
> >> > they will align
themselves with the oppressors? Psychologists can
> >do harm
>
>> > as
> >> > well as good, as any of us can. But they
do have a lot of power.
> >> >
> >> > I would want
to ask, who is going to train all these
> >psychologists? Are
>
>> > they
> >> > all going to come from the same school
- the same way of
> >thinking.
> >> > Wouldn't
>
>> > it be better to have a variety of mental health professionals
-
> >if there
> >> > has
> >> > to be -
to deal with different kinds of people - psychoanalysts,
> >> >
psychotherapists, psychiatrists, trained women's counsellors, and
> >so
on.
> >> > It's frightening to think of so many psychologists
wandering the
> >social
> >> > community seeking out new
"victims" to indoctrinate into their
> >way of
> >> >
thinking - particularly if they've all studied and come from the
>
>> > perspective
> >> > of behaviourism.
>
>> >
> >> > Sue McPherson
> >> >
Sociology (social-psychology and women's studies), envisioning
>
>wannabee
> >> > psychologists rubbing their hands with
glee.
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message
-----
> >> > From: Serdar M. Degirmencioglu
>
><mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >> > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 5:29 AM
>
>> > Subject: Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
> >>
>
> >> > Well put...
> >> >
> >>
> Serdar M. Degirmencioglu
> >> >
> >>
>
> >> > ----- Original Message ----
> >> >
From: Michael Swindlehurst <[log in to unmask]>
> >> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >> > Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 1:21:15 PM
>
>> > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 10000 more psychologists
>
>needed....
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
>
> >> > Into the valley of death rode the ten thousand -
canons to the
> >left of
> >> > them,
> >>
> barons to the right of them. Yet more measures to protect the big
>
>guns who
> >> > are destroying all of us.
> >>
>
> >> > Mike S
> >> >
> >> >
----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: David Fryer
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >> > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 9:59 PM
>
>> > Subject: Re: 10000 more psychologists needed....
> >>
>
> >> > Why 10,000 psychologists needed?
> >>
>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > In his
paper, The Role of the Psychologist, Ignacio Martin-Baro
> >cited
> >> > French
> >> > psychologist, Richelle, as
asking Why psychologists?, why the
> >quiet
> >> >
proliferation of a new species and Deleule as offering an
> >insightful
reply
> >> > psychology offers an alternative solution to social
conflicts: it
> >tries to
> >> > change the individual
while preserving the social order, or, in
> >the best
> >>
> of
> >> > cases, generating the illusion that, perhaps as
the individual
> >changes, so
> >> > will the social
order. Martin Baro commented when looking
> >dispassionately
>
>> > at
> >> > the place some psychological concepts
occupy in the dominant
> >political and
> >> > cultural
discourse, or when pondering the role played by the
> >majority
of
> >> > psychologists in our countries, one has to concede that
Deleule
> >makes a
> >> > lot
> >> > of
sense (Aron and Corne, 1994:37).
> >> >
> >>
>
> >> >
> >> > Aron, A. and Corne, S.
(Editors) (1994). Writings for a
> >Liberation
> >>
> Psychology: Ignacio Martin-Baro. Harvard University Press:
>
>Cambridge ,
> >> > Mass.
> >> >
>
>> >
> >> >
> >> > David
> >>
>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > David
Fryer
> >> > Community Psychology Group
> >> >
University of Stirling
> >> > FK9 4LA
> >> >
Scotland
> >> > +44 (0) 1786 467650 (tel)
> >> >
+44 (0) 1786 467641 (fax)
> >> > [log in to unmask]
> >>
>
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> >
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
> >> >
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sue
>
>McPherson
> >> > Sent: 23 June 2006 1:38 pm
> >>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 10000 more
psychologists
> >needed....
> >> >
> >>
>
> >> > Or, people could respond on this list, if they don't
mind not
> >making
> >> > "rapid
> >> >
response." What do you think, Petra? You must have an opinion on
>
>this,
> >> > surely.
> >> >
> >>
> Sue McPherson
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> ___________________________________ COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The
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> >> > any problems or queries, contact the list moderator at
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> >>
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> The University of Stirling is a university established in
>
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