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Apologies if my previous posting was misleading for some. I am indeed based at Stirling University myself but I certainly did not provide a link to the Stirling site to stimulate interest in careers via that route. I drew attention to that masters course in the Department of psychology at Stirling, as part of the debate re 10,000 extra psychologists, because it is an example of the newer courses I expect to see proliferating - they are far shorter than clinical courses and so the graduates are far cheaper to produce. Such shorter courses will inevitably cover less material in less depth than three year clinical doctorates because so much shorter and will provide a new workforce of psychologists for the NHS which is cheaper than employing clinical psychologists. Of course one can take different positions on such courses. From a critical perspective they share many of the problems of mainstream clinical psychology: both are primarily are about 'treating' individuals within a medical model frame of reference through intra-psychic change rather than preventing or addressing collective causes of distress within a social justice frame of reference through societal change. Both collude with victim blaming. Some might argue that three years of clinical training provides more scope for engaging with more approaches to intervention (some clinical courses include modules on community psychology) and more scope for critical reflection on the 'scientific practitioner' mantra. However, others might argue that because it is shorter the training for a one year masters has less chance for trainees to be socialised into problematic clinical ways and less opportunities for the effectiveness of trainees to be diminished than clinical training (thinking of Durlak's classic work suggesting that non professionals are often more effective than professionals in addressing psychological difficulties). What I would really like to see is more opportunities to learn about critical community* psychology in the UK as there are in many other countries. Regrettably I cannot currently recommend Stirling in that regard to members of this list. An established undergraduate module in critical community psychology has recently been discontinued by the University and whilst there is some really good postgraduate critical community psychology going on here now that particular work will be drawing to a close within a few months. Whilst future postgraduate supervision in critical community psychology is available in theory, in practice funding is very difficult indeed to get. Further community psychological praxis at Stirling involving more personnel depends, as elsewhere, upon the availability of external funding but such funding seldom allows genuinely critical praxis for obvious reasons - why would the powerful fund work fundamentally devoted to depowering it? David * interesting social psychology at Stirling is developing following the relatively recent appointment of Alex Gillespie ________________________________ From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of Sue McPherson Sent: Fri 30/06/2006 13:52 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] Careers Re: 10000 more psychologists needed.... . . . . . Nevertheless, you will have many interested people (in careers, probably) looking at the Stirling site. It would be better, I am sure, if society is going to get stuck with more top-down cures that there is more variety. . . .. Are you at Stirling, by the way Sue McPherson ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Swindlehurst <mailto:[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 11:23 PM Subject: Re: 10000 more psychologists needed.... No spelling mistake (on this occassion) with my use of the word 'canon'. This was a reference to the power of religion. The 'barons' refer to those who mostly control our social and economic structures as well put by Cathy and David below. The intended construction and advance of the 10k may help a little toward enlightening the big guns but I fear it is more likely to shield and prolong their reign at even greater loss to us all, including themselves. Our species and planet cannot cope with these 'valley of death' conflicts and inequalities indefinately. I just hope we can come up with a universal light giving brigade before it is too late for all of us. My hopes for this are currently largely with list members and your allies - most people on this planet I should imagine. Mike S ----- Original Message ----- From: David Fryer <mailto:[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 3:21 PM Subject: Re: 10000 more psychologists needed.... Who would train the 10,000 psychologists? Yet more psychologists (to be employed and trained to train) of course. Would they come from the same school . . . . I would bet on training primarily to deliver cognitive behaviour therapy to people diagnosed as 'anxious' or 'depressed' . Much easier (and politically acceptable) to offer people psychological snake oil than to change our society to remove social causes of psychological distress and physical illness like unemployment, stressful employment, domestic violence, racism, heterosexism, disabling practices . . . . . If you want to get a glimpse of the likely future have a look at the MSc Psychological Therapy in Primary Care at Stirling University: "A variety of studies by central government and professional bodies have identified the growing demand for psychological interventions for adults presenting with common mental health disorders (e.g. anxiety and depression) in NHS Primary care. There is also widespread recognition of the difficulties in meeting that demand. This Masters program, delivered jointly by the Universities of Stirling and Dundee has been designed by National Health Service (NHS) professionals and experienced academics to train people to deliver psychological therapies for common mental health disorders in adults in Primary Care." <http://www.psychology.stir.ac.uk/postgrad/propspectus2.php> http://www.psychology.stir.ac.uk/postgrad/propspectus2.php To get back to Tennyson . . . I too struggled with the light brigade comparison, find the poem's images repugnant on a variety of levels and certainly do not see the 10K psychologists as the innocent victims. Cathy McCormack has spoken powerfully of the 'war without bullets' being waged against people lower down the social hierarchy by people higher up it . . . .a war being fought with brief cases, policies leading to widening inequalities, stigma, disabling practices and psy-techniques which lead people to internalise understandings of themselves and their settings which are damaging to them and serve the interests of the status quo. So if we are to think in terms of the charge of the light brigade at all, I suggest imagining those advancing into the valley of death as being those millions of our fellow citizens who epidemiologists have repeatedly shown have shorter, less healthy, more brutalised lives due to a variety of forms of societal inequality and imagine the the 10,000 psychologists as camped on the sides of the valley operating the CBT cannon to the left of them, the person centred cannon to the right of them, the stress management cannon in front of them and the positive psychology cannon behind them As for Marx . . .. I don't know about others but if my work was described as Marxist I would take it as a compliment . . . David David Fryer Community Psychology Group University of Stirling FK9 4LA Scotland +44 (0) 1786 467650 (tel) +44 (0) 1786 467641 (fax) [log in to unmask] -----Original Message----- From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sue McPherson Sent: 29 June 2006 1:53 pm To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 10000 more psychologists needed.... I don't know who you are or what you do. Sounds Marxist to me. I can't come up with a different metaphor at this moment but how about just not seeing the world in terms of them and "us" with psychologists the innocent victims in all this. Does not anyone know the theory behind this - that as people are rewarded they will align themselves with the oppressors? Psychologists can do harm as well as good, as any of us can. But they do have a lot of power. I would want to ask, who is going to train all these psychologists? Are they all going to come from the same school - the same way of thinking. Wouldn't it be better to have a variety of mental health professionals - if there has to be - to deal with different kinds of people - psychoanalysts, psychotherapists, psychiatrists, trained women's counsellors, and so on. It's frightening to think of so many psychologists wandering the social community seeking out new "victims" to indoctrinate into their way of thinking - particularly if they've all studied and come from the perspective of behaviourism. Sue McPherson Sociology (social-psychology and women's studies), envisioning wannabee psychologists rubbing their hands with glee. ----- Original Message ----- From: Serdar M. Degirmencioglu <mailto:[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 5:29 AM Subject: Re: 10000 more psychologists needed.... Well put... Serdar M. Degirmencioglu ----- Original Message ---- From: Michael Swindlehurst <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 1:21:15 PM Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 10000 more psychologists needed.... Into the valley of death rode the ten thousand - canons to the left of them, barons to the right of them. Yet more measures to protect the big guns who are destroying all of us. Mike S ----- Original Message ----- From: David Fryer <mailto:[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 9:59 PM Subject: Re: 10000 more psychologists needed.... Why 10,000 psychologists needed? In his paper, The Role of the Psychologist, Ignacio Martin-Baro cited French psychologist, Richelle, as asking Why psychologists?, why the quiet proliferation of a new species and Deleule as offering an insightful reply psychology offers an alternative solution to social conflicts: it tries to change the individual while preserving the social order, or, in the best of cases, generating the illusion that, perhaps as the individual changes, so will the social order. Martin Baro commented when looking dispassionately at the place some psychological concepts occupy in the dominant political and cultural discourse, or when pondering the role played by the majority of psychologists in our countries, one has to concede that Deleule makes a lot of sense (Aron and Corne, 1994:37). Aron, A. and Corne, S. (Editors) (1994). Writings for a Liberation Psychology: Ignacio Martin-Baro. Harvard University Press: Cambridge , Mass. David David Fryer Community Psychology Group University of Stirling FK9 4LA Scotland +44 (0) 1786 467650 (tel) +44 (0) 1786 467641 (fax) [log in to unmask] -----Original Message----- From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sue McPherson Sent: 23 June 2006 1:38 pm To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 10000 more psychologists needed.... Or, people could respond on this list, if they don't mind not making "rapid response." What do you think, Petra? You must have an opinion on this, surely. Sue McPherson ___________________________________ COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in the UK. To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML For any problems or queries, contact the list moderator at [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask] ___________________________________ COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in the UK. To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML For any problems or queries, contact the list moderator at [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask] ___________________________________ COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in the UK. To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML For any problems or queries, contact the list moderator at [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask] -- The University of Stirling is a university established in Scotland by charter at Stirling, FK9 4LA. 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Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 268.9.3/374 - Release Date: 23/06/2006 ___________________________________ COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in the UK. To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML For any problems or queries, contact the list moderator at [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask] ___________________________________ COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in the UK. To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML For any problems or queries, contact the list moderator at [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask] -- The University of Stirling is a university established in Scotland by charter at Stirling, FK9 4LA. Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not disclose, copy or deliver this message to anyone and any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer do not consent to Internet email for messages of this kind. ___________________________________ COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in the UK. To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML For any problems or queries, contact the list moderator at [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]