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Hello Yvonne et al I thought the whole Akbar thing never really took root as a new religion although Islam had a bit of a cold blanket effect on Hinduism in general? But yes, I'd always thought 'wyrd' would be something like Hindu 'web of maya' - guess there was a great deal of mutual synthesis going on long time before Akbar - more like during the same 'classical times' - for example Hindu astrology is essentially the same as the Greek version. bb/93 mogg PS: I am a longtime member of east-west tantrik sect AMOOKOS - and we have always used the term 'wyrd' as a gloss on 'maya' - but thats not a pristine tradition - just a personal thing/ -----Original Message----- From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Yvonne Aburrow Sent: 11 July 2006 09:35 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Syncretism / the Meaning of Wyrd Hi Mogg and all I was doing a little research into angelology yesterday and it appears there was considerable mutual influence between late Hellenistic polytheism and early Christianity. Both modified their theology in response to the other. The same thing happened in Mughal India when Akbar Khan tried to create a synthesis between Hinduism and Islam; then during the British Raj there were attempts to syncretise Hinduism and Christianity, or at least Hinduism and Deism. (References and sources here: <http://vogelbeere.livejournal.com/19024.html> - last 6 paragraphs) And Snorri Sturluson was merely following the tradition of euhemerism in trying to reduce the Norse gods to ancient kings. A meeting of religions always seems to result in some attempt at mutual understanding at the very least, and sometimes synthesis (even whilst others are fighting about it). But I had always understood wyrd not to be a fatalistic concept but a fluid and changeable form of destiny (as opposed to orlog which signifies ineluctable fate). If this is correct, it seems that it was quite a well-developed concept and not merely imported; is it not possible that the translators of 'fortuna' were equating it with a pre-existing term? I always thought wyrd was related to the German verb werden, to become. Also 'fortuna', if related to the wheel of fortune, also implies changeable fortunes and not inevitable destiny (if that was what was meant by fatalism in the original post?) Yvonne Aburrow --On 11 July 2006 19:31 +0100 Mandrake of Oxford <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Dear All > > Interesting post from which I learnt something. Although I'm not so > surprised that there are christian/classical influences on European pagan > thought - its another indication that its probably a mistake to draw too > impervious a line between christianity and 'paganism'. For some neo-pagans > its maybe a uncomfortable thing - there are lines Taliesin that some have > dismissed as christian interpolations and i've heard that some 'neo-pagan' > renderings have gone so far as to edit them out. My friend the writer Jan > Fries has always taken a different, IMO more relatistic stance to these > things. Do you think Odin on the World Tree is influenced by the accounts > of the crucifixion?? > > > bb/93 > > mogg > > > > > > > Hello to all, > > On 7/10/06, jacqueline simpson <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> Rudolf Simek's 'Dictionary of Northern Mythology' >> (1984 German edition, 1993 Eng transl) mentione a book >> by G.W.Weber 'Wyrd' (Bad Homburg, 1969). He writes on >> p. 374: "Weber has been able to show that the >> expression 'wyrd' (which glosses Latin 'fortuna') is >> unlikely tohand down heathen-Germanic thought, but >> rather a medieval view of the world based on late >> Classical-Christian beliefs, and therefore ought not >> to be brought as evidence for a belief in fatalism >> among Germanic peoples." > > The obituary "Gerd Wolfgang Weber (1942?1998)" signed by Lars Lönnroth > and appeared on alvíssmál 9 (1999), pp. 93-94 (electronic edition > here: http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~alvismal/9obitgww.pdf) had: > > *** > [...] > His doctoral dissertation, Wyrd: Studien zum Schicksalsbegriff der > altenglischen und > altnordischen Literatur (Bad Homburg 1969), supervised by Klaus von > See, also reveals to > some extent the influence of Turville-Petre, but it is at the same > time an independent, learned, > and far-reaching study in Germanic philology, dealing with the idea of > fate in early West Ger- > manic and Old Norse texts. Weber demonstrates that the concept of wyrd > is not genuinely or > exclusively Germanic, but rather is influenced by classical Roman and > Christian thinking, > transmitted to Anglo-Saxon writers through Latin texts such as De > consolatione philosophiae > by Boethius. The dissertation shows that Weber, even at the earliest > stage of his career, was able to deal with a variety of Germanic and > Latin sources and draw critical conclusions from many kinds of > philological and literary evidence. > [...] > *** > > Best regards, > Roberto Yvonne ¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º http://www.yvonneaburrow.org.uk/ http://nemeton.blogspot.com/ http://vogelbeere.livejournal.com/