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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture My turn to say thanks - for such full details about what is known of the set-up at St Buryan. It sounds as if you have covered the questions I was raising... as far as the sources let us address them. In the meantime (for professional reasons), any exploration of any collegiate church large or small, but especially (for sentimental reasons) Penwith's contribution to that genre, is very welcome information. Thank you. Jon Cannon -----Original Message----- From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Susan Hoyle Sent: 23 May 2006 11:17 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [M-R] sea horses medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture In a message dated 22/05/2006 23:27:30 GMT Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes: <<Further thoughts, kids abed, should be doing something else. >> Like the Rabbi said, life begins when the children leave home and the dog is dead... <<It's very unusual for resident chaplains to be called 'canons': in fact I' ve never come across it. Are you sure the prebendaries (i.e. the receivers of prebends) were not the canons, which is entirely normal, and the resident chaplains not effectively their vicars? >> These were exactly my expectations. See my reply to your first. Here's the transcription of what the Chantry Commissioners said (Lawrence Snell, /The Chantry Certificates for Cornwall /(Documents towards a history of the Reformation in Cornwall, No 1) (Exeter, nd [1953?])): [Chantry Certificate 15/89]: ". The Deanery or Rectorye there ffounded by kyng Adelstone to ffynde a Dean or a parson who is charged wythe three curattes to serve in three sev'all churches that is to say one to mynystre in the churche of saynt Buryan w' is the mother churche & the other towe to celebrate in towe chappelles scituate wtin the paroche of saynt Buryan And being distant from the paryshe churche three ev'ye one of them three myles thereaboutes. To ffynde also three p'bendaryes to helpe to celebrate dyvyne servyce wythin the paryshe churche of saynt Buryan aforesayde w' Dean & other the sayd p' bendaryes have for the mayntenance of their lyvings the revenues of certayne landes appoynted out for ye purpose dyvyded amongst the' equallye accordyng to theyr severall porcons." [Certificate 9/4: ". ffounded wtin the p'ishe Churche of Beryan to the Dean or Rector / of Beryan whyche hath the cure of ye p'ishe churche of beryan & of ij other p'ishe Churches being chappelles therunto appendaunt And ys charged wythe thre p'ishe churches." The first certificate has three parishes and the second just one--which reflects the odd status of those parishes. <<It would be interesting to know if these chaplains had any parochial responsibilities (eg at St Levan): a dual responsibility for both parish and liturgy in the church itself crops up at some other former minster collegiate churches. >> They did, as far as I can see, at least at times. When things were very prosperous, it looks as though there were chaplains appointed to do the duties at Buryan for the prebendaries, in addition to the King's Clerk who said masses for AEthelstan, but at other times (probably most of the time, given the complaints of neglect), the same men did both parish duties and minster duties, if they did them at all. <<Likewise to know more about the lands that made up these prebends: for example, was St Levan on any particular prebend's land? If so, would 'his' chaplain (if the chaplains are indeed vicars for the prebends) have played a specific role there?>> We'd all like to know about the land. Nicholas Orme, inter alios, has studied it, and cannot say for sure. The lands which supported the Deanery until 1548 (and which were afterwards known as the Manor of Buryan and alienated from the church) were almost certainly those described in Domesday, which in turn seem to be the same as those in the AEthelstan charter (unsurprisingly, whether or not the charter is a forgery). The problem is that although some of them are still readily identifiable, quite a lot of it could be anywhere in the Deanery. Anglo-Saxon transliteration of early mediaeval Cornish can be pretty impenetrable--not that I know either language, but that's what those who do say, and I believe them... But the consensus is that most of the land was within what is now Buryan (the identifiable places all are), and that although one of the prebendaries was 'of Trethyn', which seems to be Treen in St Levan, it isn't certain that any of his lands were there. I suspect they were, however. There were some odd (for this area) land-ownership patterns in Treen in 1838 which may hark back to this. Again it needs a lot more work. Susan [log in to unmask] ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html