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I think that, from a personal point of view it is always useful to be able to bring in the views of consultants on this list, there is another list, which I believe is for the use of La/regulators only, and i subscribe to both, which one I post on would depend on the nature of my query! In the North East we run a forum, which is open to all sectors and it is certainly a useful meeting point for ideas and helpful since we can all meet in an 'unoffical' (almost) capacity! Long may the list continue, I've learned loads from it! Marie Mitchinson Technical Officer - Contaminated Land Sunderland City Council -----Original Message----- From: Contaminated Land Management Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of McMahon, Paul (SKM) Sent: 26 May 2006 15:16 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Use of Statistics . . . . >From a number of years ago, when I existed in an Academic 'World' at University of Bolton and then at Salford, it was the case that about a third of the list membership were Consultants, and that the intention was one of 'academic' discussion for the benefit of all. In the main Consultants, Regulators and Academics discuss issues on this forum admirably and long may that continue. We can all respect each others position and move technology and political agendas forward through this forum towards technical understanding and certainty (one day?). Paul Nathaniel may have his own comments to add as list moderator. Regards, Paul Dr. Paul H. McMahon Principal Geotechnical Consultant Water & Environment Sinclair Knight Merz (Europe) Ltd 5th Floor Alberton House St Mary's Parsonage Manchester M3 2WJ United Kingdom t: +44 (0) 161 833 6487 f: +44 (0) 161 833 4761 m: +44 (0) 776 465 9387 e: <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask] Sinclair Knight Merz Achieve Remarkable Success - Our Commitment to Clients For further information, visit our website www.skmconsulting.com <http://www.skmconsulting.com/> _____ From: Contaminated Land Management Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Andrews, Ken Sent: 26 May 2006 14:51 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Use of Statistics . . . . Is this forum now open up to consultants? I often thought that it was a forum for LA/academics and enforcement officers to discuss professional issues? I noted your comments that we should not be too harsh in our reply because your consultant read this board. Ken -----Original Message----- From: Contaminated Land Management Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of David Fountain Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 1:03 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Use of Statistics . . . . "Unfortunately a number of the houses didn't get the clean cover in the gardens" and "Both the mean and the 95% UCL for all the samples exceeded the SSAC (by a factor of 4)" So I was surprised when the re-test in the affected gardens resulted in "The developer has considered all the samples a single population and the stats indicate that the 95% UCLs are below the SSAC". How convenient. In this somewhat unusual case, I would consider each garden as a separate averaging area. There's really no excuse for the capping not to have been laid in every garden, and given the salient facts above, you can happily state you have to reason to suspect a problem will be present in SOME of the re-tested areas. Just remember - 88.2% of statistics are made up on the spot... Dave Fountain Contaminated Land Officer East Staffordshire Borough Council Tel: 01283 508848 Fax: 01283 508890 -----Original Message----- From: Contaminated Land Management Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Stephen Moreby Sent: 26 May 2006 12:51 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Use of Statistics . . . . Just after a reality check on a 'use of statistics issue' . . . Redevelopment of a slightly contaminated site for residential with gardens. 28 soil samples tested - only 6 had exceedances of the SSAC for the contaminant of concern, but some of these were quite high. Both the mean and the 95% UCL for all the samples exceeded the SSAC (by a factor of 4), but no identification of hotspots was possible as the ground conditions were fairly uniform. A clean-cover remediation was proposed. Unfortunately a number of the houses didn't get the clean cover in the gardens - and then managed to get sold and occupied (don't ask how !) This was identified during the validation process ( - which is a good example of why it's so important) and further testing undertaken 3 or 4 samples were taken from every garden not remediated The developer has considered all the samples a single population and the stats indicate that the 95% UCLs are below the SSAC However 6 of the gardens exceed the SSAC if you consider each garden to be an appropriate averaging area in its own right - some marginally, some more so I know it's hard to comment on specific cases, so all I'm asking is for comments on the use of stats. Is every individual garden now best considered a single appropriate averaging area ? Or is it OK to consider the validation data for all the gardens not remediated together ? Or should ALL the data be included (both the original SI and the validation data) ? Or should I simply not worry about it and act on the clear breech of planning condition ? I know the consultants involved read this board, so don't be too harsh - we all make mistakes. I hope I've explained the issue well enough. Thanks in advance. Steve Moreby Environmental Health Department Gloucester City Council T 01452 396 312 Herbert Warehouse F 01452 396 340 The Docks [log in to unmask] Gloucester, GL1 2EQ www.gloucester.gov.uk ======================================================================== DISCLAIMER This message is intended for the recipient only and may contain privileged information. If you are not the addressee, or you have received it in error, you may not copy, disclose, print, or deliver this message to anyone. Should this be the case, please delete this message, and inform the sender of your action by reply e-mail. 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