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Mark, you were the one who brought up feminism in this context and claimed it was self indulgent, knowing perfectly well that we have a history of disagreement on this. You think the feminism of middle class women is an affectation and self indulgence. I have been critical of some feminisms myself; but all the same middle class women are as much victims of rape and domestic violence as any other class, since this kind of violence bears no relation to class at all. I think Pru Goward's clear sighted and balanced commentary covers the rest. And yes, even middle class women get paid less (and yes, some get paid more). The balance still turns against women. I can't find the article, in the Age some time last year, but it showed, to most people's shock, that in some cases the differential was 10 per cent - for the same jobs. On 30/3/06 8:13 AM, "Mark Weiss" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > I doubt that your > pointing out what you consider a patriarchal > (that chronically misused term) reference will be > a particularly effective intervention. I was funning, as they say. Abraham is the archetypal Patriarch, the father of the tribes of Israel (and you referred to "tribes" ) so I was using it quite precisely. I'm at a bit of a loss to defend the significance of language. All best A Alison Croggon Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com