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I think wreck sites are intended to be in. Thank You David Evans Historic Environment Record Officer Planning & Environment South Gloucestershire Council Civic Centre High Street Kingswood South Gloucestershire BS15 9TR 01454 863649 -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nick Boldrini Sent: 31 January 2006 16:20 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: WWII aircraft crash sites Not a bad idea - anything else to go in? Perhaps Wreck sites? best wishes Nick Boldrini Historic Environment Record Officer Heritage Section Countryside Service North Yorkshire County Council Direct Dial (01609) 532331 Conserving North Yorkshire's heritage - encouraging sustainable access www.northyorks.gov.uk/archaeology This email is personal. It is not authorised by or sent on behalf of North Yorkshire County Council, however, the Council has the right and does inspect emails sent from and to its computer system. This email is the sole responsibility of the sender >>> [log in to unmask] 31/01/2006 12:54:02 >>> Isn't the obvious solution to have crash sites added to the new national register? Peter consider yourself lucky that you have had some kind of a report from TT! Thank You David Evans Historic Environment Record Officer Planning & Environment South Gloucestershire Council Civic Centre High Street Kingswood South Gloucestershire BS15 9TR 01454 863649 -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Iles, Peter Sent: 31 January 2006 10:44 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: WWII aircraft crash sites You may be interested to know that I did struggle with TT to get a satisfactory PD and made a lot of comments on at least three drafts, but that it all seemed to go out the window as soon as the filming was done. I can't comment on the actual standard of work on site as I was (deliberately?) not invited and discouraged from 'just visiting' but the evidence of the film did fill me with despair. I will be writing to TT to try and get some of the more obvious problems rectified in the report, but won't be holding my breath waiting! Pete Iles -----Original Message----- From: SCHOFIELD, John [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: 31 January 2006 09:21 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: WWII aircraft crash sites (was New listings of WW1 and WW2 ai rfield buildings) Peter I agree. The crash sites guidance note says more or less this, and in particular emphasises the need for a formal PD and states that the work should satisfy the IFA's Code of Conduct (to which the British Aviation Archaeology Council are signed up). It sounds like we are getting there, but it would be good if Time Team could be seen to conform to the standards and set an example - their excavation after all post-dated the crash sites guidance, which was publicly available on the Web. I wonder if they saw it? John -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Iles, Peter Sent: 30 January 2006 18:10 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: WWII aircraft crash sites (was New listings of WW1 and WW2 ai rfield buildings) I would agree that something needs to be done - I received this morning the report of the pointless Time Team "The bombers in the Marsh" (broadcast spring 2005) where Phil Harding cut up some of the remains with an angle grinder and, after the programme was finished, more remains were dragged out with mechanical excavators. I suppose I should be grateful to get anything at all, but to call the activity 'archaeology' seemed disingenuous and a 17 month delay in producing a small report hasn't help convince me that the current controls are adequate (or that TT can produce anything worthwhile). The conclusions reached were that, surprise surprise, the crash investigation at the time was correct - and it would appear from the report that this could have been decided by documentary work. I would suggest as a start that any works called 'excavation' or 'archaeology' should be required to come up with a formal project design to satisfy the local curator that it will be done to IFA or equivalent standards. That the work is monitored closely (paid for by the 'digging team') and that if it is not done to the standards set in the PD then the team involved will never be given permission to excavate again. Peter D Iles Specialist Advisor (Archaeology) Lancashire County Council Environment Directorate PO Box 9 Guild House Cross Street Preston Lancashire PR1 8RD t. 01772 531550 f. 01772 533423 e. [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> -----Original Message----- From: SCHOFIELD, John [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: 30 January 2006 17:07 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: WWII aircraft crash sites (was New listings of WW1 and WW2 airfield buildings) All very good news - most (but not all) of which I was aware of. It may be timely to start thinking about an updated version of the crash sites guidance note, some aspects of which have now clearly been overtaken by the developments you and Robin refer to. Would this be helpful, do members think? J -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hammond, Niall Sent: 30 January 2006 16:08 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: WWII aircraft crash sites (was New listings of WW1 and WW2 airfield buildings) John, Robin has been very helpful in supplying details of known crash sites to the MOD so that we in the Historic Environment Team can advise the RAF appropriately. This is particularly important as all such sites are protected under the 1986 PMRA (Protection of Military Remains Act), which requires any individual or group who are going to excavate, move or damage a crash site to gain prior approval from the RAF. This was primarily intended to safeguard what are in many cases war graves from interference. We now have an internal system of consultation and advice within MOD whereby we advise the RAF on any applications they receive and are gradually ensuring that in addition to the protection of the human remains still contained within many crash sites, that we safeguard the cultural heritage element also, which in addition to the plane itself, may involve multi-period deposits depending on where the crash occurred. As a part of this we would normally include an HER consultation. If any list members have concerns over specific proposed excavations of military air crash sites, please get in touch. Niall Niall Hammond Senior Historic Buildings Advisor Environment Support Team Defence Estates Gough Road Catterick Garrison Tel 01748 875058 North Yorkshire Mobile 07734854668 DL9 3EJ Facsimile 01748 875097 DE Environmental Support Team Integrating the Environment with Defence Needs -----Original Message----- From: SCHOFIELD, John [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: 30 January 2006 15:54 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: WWII aircraft crash sites (was New listings of WW1 and WW2 airfield buildings) Dear Robin I don't know about others, but I'm increasingly being asked for locational details for specific crash sites. It's useful therefore to know that NMR is becoming a major source for such information. Are you the main point of contact for information about these sites in future? Also, it would be useful to know: 1 To what extent the 1,970 records represent a comprehensive list of those crash sites from WWII for which an accurate location is known. Are the remainder less well documented for example? 2 What were the key sources used to reach the current figure, and 3 Are there are any key sources that haven't yet been trawled? 4 Assuming from 'current' that you're not yet finished, what is the timescale for completion? It would be useful I think to advertise the fact that a fifth of these sites have been recorded on the NMR. Does the Air Historical Branch know for example, and RAF Museum Hendon? A word with the EH Press Office perhaps? John -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of PAGE, Robin Sent: 30 January 2006 14:52 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: WWII aircraft crash sites (was New listings of WW1 and WW2 airfield buildings) Dear List members Further to my recent posting forwarded to the list about military aviation data in the National Monuments Record, I have to own up to a statistical error in my aside about the military aircraft crash sites we have recorded. The actual current figure should have been over 1,970 records not 19,700 which was a typographical error of mine. The current total thus represents about a fifth of the estimated total of some 10,000 aircraft lost over this country in WWII. I hope list members will accept my apologies for that mistake. 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