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Hi Terance,If I am reading you correctly there is a place for the initial concept and then depending on the specialty it would have sub levels of understanding. It means that each industry or project is knowledge specific. What I don't like is a process of excluding designers simply because they do not fall into the category of say 'architect' or 'town planner' (an area of interest). Obviously specialist knowledge is required but there may be a crossover in some areas. If there are clearly defined needs, which seems to be the thrust of your argument, then they should be the driving force. The lack of good process can lead to a kind of discrimination? Peter--- On Fri 06/02, Terence Love < [log in to unmask] > wrote:From: Terence Love [mailto: [log in to unmask]]To: [log in to unmask]: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 12:00:10 +0800Subject: RE: Collaboration within designersDear Peter,I agree. The role of concept in early stage design is important. But I thinkthere are advantages i! n using a more sophisticated concept of 'concept'than is used in visually-based collaborative design.There are good examples of collaborative processes using concepts inconceptual stage engineering design that show up some issues that are not atthe moment well addressed in theories about collaborative design in otherareas.In engineering design, there is widespread use of concepts that help addressdesign situations where complexity is very high and drive the choice ofdesign solution. This much is similar to visually-based design. A key difference is that many of these concepts are abstractions whoseprimary role is to facilitate design optimisation, reasoning, and enabledifferent aspects of a design to be brought together into a common explicitlanguage that can be used to modify these abstract concepts in ways thatwould echo their real world behavior. This is of significance in collaborative design practice because this kindof approach to 'concept' then becomes something that ca! n be relativelyunambiguously shared between designers. An example of a similar approach in visually-based design is the use of SGMLand its derivatives in the design of documents. In theory, rules can beembedded in SGML that include optimisation support for design decisionsbased on design research findings in areas of aesthetics, desirability,readability, universal design, legibility, cross-media repurposing, etc.This would rework the role of 'concept' in collaborative design to somethingin which much implicit 'understanding' (or delusion - depends on your take!)is made more explicit for the purpose of collaboratively improving designedoutput.Best wishes,Terry===Dr. Terence [log in to unmask] -----Original Message-----From: Peter Retallick [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Friday, 2 June 2006 9:17 AMTo: [log in to unmask]: Re: Collaboration within designersSorry if this is a double posting but I'm getting strange messages. Ifthere is a clearly defined practice then designers should have no troublegetting on board at any stage of the process. I am reminded of a book called"The Ten Faces of Innovation" by Tom Kelley (IDEO). About the only thingmissing is a 'concept' which is very important. I've been talking toarchitects, landscape architects and urban planners about this and itdoesn't seem to register. Talking about concepts to these people is likespeaking into a long dark tunnel in my experience. One landscape architectsaid they spend five minutes on that and the rest is technical.I suppose youcould call it a common structure or language that needs to beunderstood?Peter Retallick MDesSydney--- On Fri 05/26, Swanson, Gunnar &lt;[log in to unmask] &gt; wrote:From: Swanson, Gunnar [mailto: [log in to unmask]]To:[log in to unmask]: Fri, 26 May 2006 11:38:18 -0400Subject: Re:Collaboration within designersThe interesting question may not be thedefinition of collaboration as =much as what ways designers can worktogether with designers and others. =The prevailing method in many areas isto the left side of a chart that =ranges from radically individual toradically communal. It is not =surprising that the distribution of designprocesses often tends to lean =left on such a chart; it is very easy toimagine what a radically =individual work process would be and hard toimagine what would really =deserve the adverb attached to communal.Designersshowing up to a meeting with other designers could be part of =acollaborative process if there is a sense of shared ownership of the =ideasrepresented. If the process is "choose our favorite solution" then =it mightbe a stretch to call the design work collaborative, even if an =initial design decision is. If the other designers look at a=representation of a solution and feel free to change, add to, subtract=from, refine, or use as a springboard to other approaches, then that =couldbecome a fairly communal process.A challenge I have been grapplin! g with (asa working designer and =graphic design teacher, not as a researcher) is howdesigners and others =can best share thoughts and understanding early in thedesign process. =In my experience, this is tricky to manage. Verbaldecisions about =design made early often lock the design process into atoo-narrow range =and asking people with no design experience to makedecisions they can't =possibly understand is both stupid and unfair. On theother extreme, =bringing a finished artifact or plan to others and askingfor an up or =down vote disallows the application of broader experience anddiverse =points of view.Gunnar----------Gunnar SwansonSchool of Art &amp;DesignEast Carolina UniversityGreenville, North Carolina [log in to unmask] 252 3282839&gt; I would like you opinion about:&gt;&gt; When each person (referrring a group of designers) brings prepared =work&gt; to a meeting ( ameeting with designers), is it true that they are not&gt; collaborating whenthey design the work.&gt;&gt; Thanks&gt;&gt;&gt; Arminda Lopes_______________________________________________Join Excite! - http://www.excite.comThe most personalized portal on the Web! _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web!