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After the friendly banter about your age Greta I could not miss it, but I promise not to go on about that. We are as young as we feel and I hope you feel young. The training fee was picked from the air not to be taken literally but surely accredited certificates of competency cost more than £80. Just to clarify that I paid for my own training, both occ health and safety, travel, accommodation etc. without relying on my employer, I consider myself fortunate to have been able to do this. As for grants, surely you have to be a member of the RCN to get an RCN grant. I think I have heard of cost benefit analysis somewhere, yep it rings a bell. Come on Greta, give us some recognition for knowing the basics. Well enough, have a good weekend all. Frank _____ From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Greta Thornbory Sent: 30 September 2006 11:30 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Higher level of practice Not sure Frank you appreciate how old I am and that also I have had a career, brought up a family and suffered the same slings and arrows that befall nurses today. Studying on the loo was the only place at times! Yes, been a single parent, penniless, had two jobs..... Also - if you go into OH you must appreciate the business maxim - 'Maximum output for minimum outlay' because that is what business is all about. I taught this often enough - ex students back me up on this? Spiro courses NRTC at £80 - see HYPERLINK "http://www.educationforhealth.org.uk"www.educationforhealth.org.uk What about the grants that available form the RCN and AOHNP? As someone who administered the Peter Holgate award when working at the RCN - it was in those days £1000 a year - only one person ever applied (twice) and got it (twice), yet every year we advertised it in OH mag. There are many ways to get on in nursing without always relying on your employer to pay. e.g. Earn some money from your dissertation, write a summary and get it published in OH. Besides if you want the employer to pay you have to be able to demonstrate financially what he gets out of it - cost benefit analysis. I could go on but I am bored. I didn't get where I am today without... blah, blah, blah Greta ----- Original Message ----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:[log in to unmask]"Frank Oakes To: HYPERLINK "mailto:[log in to unmask]"[log in to unmask] Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Higher level of practice Greta, I can not argue with you but what I think academia and the NMC needs to appreciate is that the bulk of people working in Occupational Health today are shall we say, in our more mature years. They have families, financial commitments, heavy workloads and more often than not employers whose only concern is to get product out of the factory gate and sponsoring 'the nurse' to go onto further education that in their opinion ( and more often than not ours) does not give them the skills such as audiometric and spirometry training to do the job. Like a lot of you I have worked in industry for a few years now and I can picture the faces of the managers when we ask them can we go on a course with 'nurses' and learn about the theory of health when I have just spent 15 years convincing them that we are more than just nurses and oh yes, can I have an extra £3,000 to do my spiro and audio course also. We can do better and under the circumstances we do. All I ask on behalf of us out here is that academia, the NMC et al. stop beating us up, stop moving the goal posts and appreciate the frustrations expressed here. That's the beauty of a forum like this we can express ourselves at all levels and we will never agree with everything said here, but that's democracy for you, you got to love it. I hope no one takes offence by any of this. Just my Saturday morning two pennies worth. Regards Frank _____ From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Greta Thornbory Sent: 29 September 2006 23:58 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: [OCC-HEALTH] Higher level of practice Neil The RCN competency framework does not say you have to have an MSC. It actually says an expert OHN should have: * 5 years experience in an OH setting * Post basic education and training equivalent to a university higher degree * Holds a recordable/registered OHN qualification with the NMC * Develops, leads and establishes protocols and procedures at operational and strategic levels etc etc This document was not just Carol Bannisters work it occurred as a result of a number of workshops with OH nurses through the RCN SOHN & OH Managers forum all of whom are RCN members - the list of people involved significantly numbers over 50. So you are saying they are all wrong? The concept of 'a higher level of practice' was reported on by the UKCC in 1999 in their document of that name and it is a report on the 'research' that they carried out on the subject - 'evidence based practice' not just idle ideas thrown at nurses who want to wear a fancy gown ( not sure about this fur lined hat stuff though????). I do think that this sort of talk does not help the nursing profession and shows a distinct lack of understanding about the knowledge that underpins practice. If people today can get a degree in knitting then surly nurses can do better? Greta ----- Original Message ----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:[log in to unmask]"Neil Loach To: HYPERLINK "mailto:[log in to unmask]"[log in to unmask] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:13 PM Subject: [OCC-HEALTH] FW: [OCC-HEALTH] NMC -----Original Message----- From: neilg.loach [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: 29 September 2006 23:11 To: 'Occupational Health mailing list' Subject: RE: [OCC-HEALTH] NMC Bob, and list. The use of the word "expert" brings about another debate. The RCN competency framework clearly states that an expert needs to have an MSc. What absolute utter bull! An expert is, according to the Oxford English Dictionary..... "having special knowledge of or skill in a subject" It does not say you have to have studied at masters level and got a fancier gown or a fur lined hat. Academia gone mad if you ask me. And yes Carol Bannister, I shall be having words in Harrogate! What were you thinking! Neil Loach Senior Occupational Health Nurse Practitioner / Operations Manager University Hospitals of Leicester -----Original Message----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:[log in to unmask]"[log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Dunn Sent: 28 September 2006 12:32 To: HYPERLINK "mailto:[log in to unmask]"[log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] NMC Thanks Chris, Hmmmm how do I answer this?? You are by your knowledge and repute deemed to be an 'expert' in your particular field, and yes, experiential learning can be as comprehensive and of a higher value than that taught in seats of learning. However, the core issue here is the situation that most OH nurses tend to be generalists unless working they work in a specific industry for an extended period of time. Anyone who uses your services, or takes your advice would, I would have thought, checked both you and your 'track record' and satisfied themselves as to your credentials...that is their choice. Employees being advised by an OH nurse do not have this luxury, although to some degree employers do, therefore the NMC decided (rightly) that a professional register of OH qualified practitioners was needed to satisfy a demonstrable level of competence. Nursing is after all a regulated profession.......... The problem is that without an auditable system of formal teaching and guidance ensuring competence, it would be all too easy for a nurse working in OH to make a decision that is erroneous because either that was the way she had been taught (unqualified teacher), or they had been given false information (especially in relation to applying legislation), or was being pressured by the employer and didn't know anything different, with far reaching consequences for the nurse, the employer or the employee. One of the main messages communicated from a formal OH course is "now we have given you the basics, go away and read more.......learn, and know where your limitations are in regard to a particular topic BEFORE trying to apply it in the workplace". Nurses that have not done an OH course may not necessarily do this. Therefore, without a formal and required training as required out by the NMC, and an appropriate registration structure, how can anyone legally prove that they have met a given standard? How to ensure a level of demonstrable competence to prevent occurrences by OH nurses such as the one you cited regarding using barrier creams for Hydroflouric acid (shudder) is what I think this discussion is really about.!! Regards, Bob -----Original Message----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:[log in to unmask]"[log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Packham Sent: 28 September 2006 11:28 To: HYPERLINK "mailto:[log in to unmask]"[log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] NMC Bob I have followed this exchange with increasing interest. Now I am not an occupational health nurse, nor do I claim any "professional" or "medical" qualifications. However, I do work in what might be considered an occupational health related field, in that my particular specialism lies in the prevention of damage to health from workplace skin exposure. In this I believe I can rightfully claim that I am regarded as something of a specialist. Even the HSE has recently engaged me to provide courses on "skin management" for some of their inspectors. So where does this leave me in terms of my "professionalism"? Some time ago a group of us arranged training on courtroom skills with a well known training establishment. When I discussed my "lack of qualifications" with the lawyers who were running the course, their response was that this was not something that would particularly worry them. They would be happy to regard me as an "expert" on the basis of the work I have done, papers published etc. In fact, one of them stated that membership of a professional body (they were not referring to nurses here, but to safety practitioners) would not automatically confirm their professionalism. Of course, I am not decrying the need for and benefits of registration with a professional body. However, having recently had a member of one of the professional bodies recommend a barrier cream as adequate protection against hydrofluoric acid, I take the view that it is what the person has done (i.e. their track record) that is more important for the employer. I frequently encounter professional health and safety people who have made decisions in my particular area of expertise that have actually increased the risk, simply because, as generalists, they have not had sufficient knowledge of this specific aspect. Regards Chris EnviroDerm Services 2 Amery Lodge Farm, North Littleton, Evesham, WR11 8QY, U.K. Tel: 0044 1386 832 311 Dermatological Engineering for a healthier workplace For more information about our support, services and technical aids, visit our recently revised website: (HYPERLINK "http://www.enviroderm.co.uk"www.enviroderm.co.uk) For immediate help e-mail us at HYPERLINK "mailto:[log in to unmask]"[log in to unmask] or phone on +44 1386 832 311 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please remove this footer before replying. For list archives and documents, go to HYPERLINK "http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html"http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/l ists/occ-health.html FORTHCOMING CONFERENCES AND EVENTS: HYPERLINK "http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/filearea.cgi?LMGT1=OCC-HEALTH"http://www. jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/filearea.cgi?LMGT1=OCC-HEALTH For Occupational Health jobs, go to HYPERLINK "http://OHJobs.drmaze.net"http://OHJobs.drmaze.net Find out about Occupational Health Nursing Education in UK at HYPERLINK "http://home.wlv.ac.uk/~in6232/aohne/"http://home.wlv.ac.uk/~in6232/aohne/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please remove this footer before replying. For list archives and documents, go to HYPERLINK "http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html"http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/l ists/occ-health.html FORTHCOMING CONFERENCES AND EVENTS: HYPERLINK "http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/filearea.cgi?LMGT1=OCC-HEALTH"http://www. jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/filearea.cgi?LMGT1=OCC-HEALTH For Occupational Health jobs, go to HYPERLINK "http://OHJobs.drmaze.net"http://OHJobs.drmaze.net Find out about Occupational Health Nursing Education in UK at HYPERLINK "http://home.wlv.ac.uk/~in6232/aohne/"http://home.wlv.ac.uk/~in6232/aohne/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.10/459 - Release Date: 29/09/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.10/459 - Release Date: 29/09/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.10/459 - Release Date: 29/09/2006 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please remove this footer before replying. For list archives and documents, go to HYPERLINK "http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html"http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/l ists/occ-health.html FORTHCOMING CONFERENCES AND EVENTS: HYPERLINK "http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/filearea.cgi?LMGT1=OCC-HEALTH"http://www. jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/filearea.cgi?LMGT1=OCC-HEALTH For Occupational Health jobs, go to HYPERLINK "http://OHJobs.drmaze.net"http://OHJobs.drmaze.net Find out about Occupational Health Nursing Education in UK at HYPERLINK "http://home.wlv.ac.uk/~in6232/aohne/"http://home.wlv.ac.uk/~in6232/aohne/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.10/459 - Release Date: 29/09/2006 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please remove this footer before replying. For list archives and documents, go to http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html FORTHCOMING CONFERENCES AND EVENTS: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/filearea.cgi?LMGT1=OCC-HEALTH For Occupational Health jobs, go to http://OHJobs.drmaze.net Find out about Occupational Health Nursing Education in UK at http://home.wlv.ac.uk/~in6232/aohne/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.9/458 - Release Date: 27/09/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.10/459 - Release Date: 29/09/2006 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please remove this footer before replying. For list archives and documents, go to http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html FORTHCOMING CONFERENCES AND EVENTS: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/filearea.cgi?LMGT1=OCC-HEALTH For Occupational Health jobs, go to http://OHJobs.drmaze.net Find out about Occupational Health Nursing Education in UK at http://home.wlv.ac.uk/~in6232/aohne/ _____ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.10/459 - Release Date: 29/09/2006 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please remove this footer before replying. For list archives and documents, go to http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html FORTHCOMING CONFERENCES AND EVENTS: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/filearea.cgi?LMGT1=OCC-HEALTH For Occupational Health jobs, go to http://OHJobs.drmaze.net Find out about Occupational Health Nursing Education in UK at http://home.wlv.ac.uk/~in6232/aohne/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.10/459 - Release Date: 29/09/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.10/459 - Release Date: 29/09/2006 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please remove this footer before replying. For list archives and documents, go to http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html FORTHCOMING CONFERENCES AND EVENTS: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/filearea.cgi?LMGT1=OCC-HEALTH For Occupational Health jobs, go to http://OHJobs.drmaze.net Find out about Occupational Health Nursing Education in UK at http://home.wlv.ac.uk/~in6232/aohne/