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well, yes. That's why I said probably. I think any program would be hard pushed to tell the gender if you analysed 3 word epigraphs - then again, people reveal themselves in their writing more than we might think. After all, we are talking about the writing aren't we? You seem to verge into something else at some point below. All this - and the below - are mere assertions and blow hard unless actually tested. Now that'd be interesting. Roger On 9/29/06, Alison Croggon <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Roger, I bet my bottom dollar that there are many cases where you > _can't_ tell the gender of the poet. I feel a bit depressed by some > things in this conversation, it's the other face of Luce Iriguay's > absurd claims about women's language. Of course there is difference, > but it exists within the sexes as much as between them. I might have > more in common with some men than with some women. Human beings are > much stranger than most people think. > > Are you so sure that you can t ell whether a person is a man or a > woman in the first place? There are lots of women who pass as men, and > lots of men who pass as women, and a myriad of other variants. > > The idea of the androgyne in writing is also very ancient. It's > usually the man taking on feminine aspects, but of course it runs the > other way around. Just that the gender appropriations tend to provoke > anxieties among those who like to think the sexes are sure and > absolute, instead of performances of various kinds. Writing is one > place where you can play with these things. Jane, I don't "reject > femininity" - I have three children, for a start, and am perfectly > aware that women and men have differences, and personally rather like > them. But I do reject huge aspects of the socialisations and values > that are attached to those differences. I remember that Bloodaxe > anthology of British women poets, where I kept reading how women had > to keep that pram out of the hallway if they wanted to be proper > poets. Now it seems like the other way around, like you have to have a > pram in the hallway to have any credibility. In either case, what is > at issue for women is the definition, self or otherwise, against ideas > of masculinity and within ideas of femininity. Surely there are other > ways of imagining writerly selves that don't imprison us in the merely > reactionary or ideas of the proper or proprieties that disempower us? > (Thanks for mentioning Sarah Kane, Rupert). Isn't there still > something to be learned, for example, from Frederick Douglass's > appropriation of European rhetorics of freedom to argue for the > freedom of slaves? > > Btw, Zoe, what is a "passive" or "active" lyric? Loy's poem strikes me > as a performance of femininity, perhaps an ironic performance; but is > there something in the language itself that indicates that? I can't > see it. Or is it just what the poem is "about"? > > All the best > > A > > > On 9/30/06, Roger Day <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > That doesn't mean that female poetry & male poetry should face off > > against each as huge blocs - it's just that you can probably tell the > > gender of the person who wrote a particular poem. > > > > On 9/29/06, Roger Day <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > You take the word frequencies used by groups of female and male poets > > > writing within the same culture. I'm willing to bet those frequencies > > > will be different. It would be a good test. > > > After all, people claim they can tell individual authors from > > > sampling their work. > > > > > > Roger > > > > > > On 9/29/06, Alison Croggon <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > > > > I do feel hostile to the idea of "male poetry" and "female poetry". I > > > > mean, what? Do you get told off if you're not a proper woman? How do > > > > you sex a poem? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > http://www.badstep.net/ > > > http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ > > > Suspicion breeds confidence > > > > > > > > > -- > > http://www.badstep.net/ > > http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ > > Suspicion breeds confidence > > > > > -- > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > -- http://www.badstep.net/ http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ Suspicion breeds confidence