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An interesting analysis David, As I remember it , although I was not involved in any way at that time, the transformation to becoming a contemporary service provider was your idea, this as you say enabled Phoenix House to survive. For that to you deserve great credit. I am not sure what treatment model/s are practiced in today's Phoenix Houses in GB. What information I have is that in each house still retains a few of the better 'bits' of the 'old' model, but has developed in a different way partly to suit the part of the country it is in, and the 'mix' of staff its members. If there are any current staff on this list I would be grateful for an update. I like the words 'transitional community' for TC's it's very fitting ! There is one point however in which you may are in danger of over generalisation. My understanding is, what was the original the 'Concept' model, has now been developed and evolved a very, very, long way since it's original 'conception ' excuse the pun ! and much has been learnt from the mistakes of the past. I believe there are some other examples in this country and it has certainly happened world wide,Arial Phoenix Haga is a very good example. Arial My own view is that one always has to be very careful with all developments as there is a danger at times of 'throwing the baby out with the bath water' Warmest wishes Dave On 17 Nov 2005, at 17:05, David Tomlinson wrote: Dear all Putting Culverlands and Cul-de-Sac together was to a large extent a play on words and not a comment on its closure, in effect it was ahead of its time (at least in this country) in dealing with anti social behaviour in clients who presented with problems other than substance misuse and worked with them in a TC setting.  There was however a serious point I was making, in that, at that time the TC (and I prefer transitional community) had come to a dead end (geddit); was unloved by the drugs field at large, was largely ineffective in delivering treatment outcomes (at least in the way they were self presented) and not given sufficient gravitas by funders.  In this environment its survival as a treatment provider was in question, and avoiding the cul-de-sac was one of Phoenix House's achievements in the late seventies, it did this primarily by becoming client focused, encouraging a feminist agenda (and appointing staff able ! to nurture it) and later an agenda on race and culture.  It networked with other agencies, and gained critical mass through opening the new projects, which not only put it on a sound financial footing but widened the pool of creative talent in the staff teams. It became a registered housing association, which brought financial disciplines and a regulatory environment.  On the basis of turnover it got into the UK's top 100 charities, and as such a 'modern' charity.  However, regarding the transformation from 'classical' TC model to contemporary service provider, however, the reforms probably did not go far enough and it was left to my successors as Chief Executive to develop the model further. Now, you may wonder what has brought on this sudden outpouring of angst, well it is the desire to see entrepreneurship, governance and quality standards seen as sides of the same coin.  Memory lane is all very well but rathe! r like people referring to 'this movement', by the time it is being said it probably doesn't exist anymore. David    Anthony Slater <<[log in to unmask]> wrote: David, I thought you were lurking out there somewhere.......the past is also in some regards a foriegn country to me also. However, I think you may be mistaken regarding Cui -De-Sac House, it didn't really close, simply moved location to "What goes around, comes around lane". Its a modified therapeutic community for pensioners. Anthony 0000,605F,BFBEDavid Tomlinson 0000,605F,BFBEChair, T3E (UK) Ltd - the race and drugs Initiative 0000,605F,BFBETel 0044 (0)20 8244 7545 0000,605F,BFBEMobile 0777856853