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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture The only inconsistency I see here is Tollhurst's comment that "a feria had no second Vespers". What he probably means is "a feria has only one vesper hour, (i.e. that of the day itself, beginning with Matins/Vigils and ending with Compline). Compline is largely a "common" hour, with few if any "proper" elements ( in the Roman usage) , other than the tone for the hymns, etc. In that regard, I would think there would be two complines for double feasts: one after First Vespers and another after Second Vespers. best, John W. John B. Wickstrom [log in to unmask] -----Original Message----- From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of John Briggs Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 8:18 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: [M-R] The Liturgical Day medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture OK, gang - here's the situation: I'm attempting to read my way through Tolhurst's "Introduction to the English Monastic Breviaries", and getting confused. It is not as clear and logical as Harper's "Forms and Orders", but I am starting to spot inconsistencies. For example, Harper says: "In the ferial sections of the Office books ... the day begins with Matins and goes through each Office in sequence to Compline." "A feast begins not at Matins but at Vespers on the preceding evening." "Double feasts (and Sundays) have two Vespers." (pp.56-57). Tolhurst, however, says (p.152): "The liturgical day begins with Vespers sung on the preceding evening and therefore, since the office of a feast is not completed until Compline of the day itself, this first hour of the office is usually referred to as First Vespers and consequently that sung on Saturday evening must be regarded as first Vespers of Sunday." "A feria, either an ordinary one or one within an octave, had no second Vespers." (p.154). There's something wrong here! If Harper is right, a feria doesn't have a *first* Vespers, and a simple feast doesn't its own second Vespers. But presumably Compline is always of the day itself? What do people think? John Briggs ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html