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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture At present, there is a Mithraic temple? shrine? room? at the very bottom of San Clemente in Rome, one of the most fascinating places on earth. Another favorite parallel of Christian bashers is that between Mithras and Christ. MG >From: Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]> >Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious > culture <[log in to unmask]> >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: [M-R] Cybele and BVM >Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:11:45 -0400 > >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > >Is there any indication when Christians started reusing temples as >churches? I did a lot of reading on the churches of Rome years ago, & I >believe it was Rome in the Dark Ages by Peter Llewellyn (London, 1993) that >said Christians let the Pantheon etc. sit idle for a long period before >taking them over as churches (ca. 7th century). > >Tom Izbicki > >Thomas Izbicki >Collection Development Coordinator >Eisenhower Library >Johns Hopkins >Baltimore, MD 21218 >(410)516-7173 >fax (410)516-8399 > > >>> [log in to unmask] 08/23/05 4:04 PM >>> >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > >Gregory's writ did not run in Greece -- at that point, no one's did -- but >there are a vast number of replacement or evolved shrines. I used to live >in the Argolid & was fascinated that a shrine to which Hera was taken >annually to bathe (Pausanias) has been, at least from the 12th C, a >convent/monastery to Zoodochos Pigi, the Life-Giving Fountain, which icon >shows the Virgin in a chalice from which pour 4 streams of water. > > >Churches dedicated to Ag. Marina [Western Margherita] show her with a >dragon >out of which she busted: every Ag. Marina I know is built on the base of a >temple to Athena [who busted out of Zeus' head....]. > >Ag. Elias who went to heaven in a chariot has long been confounded with >Helios & his sun chariot. > >The small church to Ag. Thomas encorporates a preChristian rock with a hole >in it through which children are passed for healing. And so on and so >forth. > >It is, I believe, impossible to demonstrate continuity at any of these >sites: there have been so many massacres, transfers of populations, >destructions of buildings, periods of wealth & literacy [and so familiarity >with classical works], foreign dominations [including foreigners who come >wanting continuities], etc.. > >DW > > >2. What may be significant would be attempts to uproot Cybele worship AND >replace it with Marian veneration. To chart this one would have to know a >fair number of Cybele temples which became Marian shrines or hymns to Mary >patterned on earlier aretologies. Here Ep. XI.56 of Gregory the Great (601) >is instructive. In this letter he deliberately advocates replacement of >non-Christian effigies and shrines with Christian ones. This was a change >from his earlier policy--and that of Boniface--of simply obliterating >non-Christian cultic images. Augustine also wrote about the replacement of >a Christian church on the site of a Magna Mater temple on the Carthage >Byrsa. Though the temple was demolished women still brought their offerings >to the hill. There is also the case of the Kollyridian in Epiphanius, >Panarian. Finally, the shrine to Mary at the base of the hill of the >Parthenon in Athens (still extant) might be instructive. It is on the site >of what was once a goddess shrine and the guardians of the Marian shrine to >this day are all women. > It is true, as several correspondents have noted, that early >Christianity did not teach that Mary should be given divine honors. >However, the history of Marian devotion does not always make clear how >people venerating Mary imagined her or what they might be doing on site >formerly hallowed by goddess worship. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Author > Borgeaud, Philippe > Title > Mère des dieux. English > > Mother of the gods : from Cybele to the Virgin Mary / Philippe Borgeaud ; > translated by Lysa Hochroth > Imprint > Baltimore : Johns Hopkins University Press, 2004 > > > > > > > > > Click on the following to: > Connect to http://www.loc.gov/catdir/bios/jhu051/2004004563.html > Connect to http://www.loc.gov/catdir/description/jhu051/2004004563.html > Connect to http://www.loc.gov/catdir/toc/ecip0415/2004004563.html > > > > > > > > > Descript > xix, 186 p. ; 24 cm > Bibliog. > Includes bibliographical references (p. [133]-177) and indexes > Contents > An itinerant mother -- In the Athenian Agora -- The invention of a > mythology -- The mother's entrance into the Roman Republic -- The origin > of the Mater Magna -- Attis in the Imperial period -- From mother of the > gods to Mother of God > Subjects > Mary, Blessed Virgin, Saint -- Devotion to > > Cybele (Goddess) > > Christianity and other religions -- Roman > > Mother goddesses -- Rome > OCLC # > 54529874 > ISBN > 080187985X (alk. paper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Author > Julian, Emperor of Rome, 331-363 > Title > Eis t¯en m¯etera t¯on the¯on. Italian & Greek > > Alla madre degli dei / Giuliano Imperatore ; edizione critica, traduzione > e commento a cura di Valerio Ugenti > Imprint > [Galatina] : Gongedo, 1992 > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alt name > Ugenti, Valerio, 1950- > Descript > xxx, 176 p. ; 24 cm > Series > Testi e studi / Università degli studi di Lecce, Dipartimento di >filologia > classica e medioevale ; 6 > > Testi e studi (Università degli studi di Lecce. Dipartimento di filologia > classica e medioevale) ; 6 > Bibliog. > Includes bibliographical references and indexes > Subjects > Cybele (Goddess) -- Cult -- Early works to 1800 > > Attis (God) -- Cult -- Early works to 1800 > > Rome -- Religion -- Early works to 1800 > OCLC # > 33357148 > ISBN > 8877865547 : L50.000 > > > > > > > > > >|--------------------------------------------------------------------------| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| Author >| >|Langener, Lucia >| >| Title >| >|Isis lactans--Maria lactans : Untersuchungen zur koptischen Ikonographie >/| >|Lucia Langener >| >| Publish info >| >|Altenberge : Oros Verlag, 1996 >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| Descript'n >| >|xiii, 323 p., viii, 190 p. : ill. ; 21 cm >| >| Series >| >|Arbeiten zum spätantiken und koptischen Ägypten ; 9 >| >| Note >| >|Originally presented as the author's thesis (Westfälischen >| >|Wilhelms-Universität in Münster, 1995) >| >| >| >|Includes bibliographical references >| >| Subjects >| >|Isis (Egyptian deity) -- Art >| >| >| >|Mary, Blessed Virgin, Saint -- Art >| >| >| >|Breastfeeding in art >| >| >| >|Art, Coptic -- Themes, motives >| >| OCLC # >| >|37157894 >| >| ISBN >| >|3893751319 : >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >|--------------------------------------------------------------------------| > > >Also see >|--------------------------------------------------------------------------| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| An Isis Aretalogy from Kyme in Asia Minor, First Century B.C.E. / Gail >| >| Corrington Streete >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >|--------------------------------------------------------------------------| > >in >|--------------------------------------------------------------------------| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| Title >| >|Religions of late antiquity in practice / Richard Valantasis, editor >| >| Publish info >| >|Princeton, N.J. : Princeton University Press, c2000 >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >| >|--------------------------------------------------------------------------| > >When one finds a litany directly patterned on an aretology of a goddess, >one can surmise something of the tactics Gregory promoted. > > For those of you who are interested in Mariology, I suggest the >resources of the library of the International Marian Research Institute, >here in Dayton. Their web page is ><http://www.udayton.edu/~mary/>. The library holdings can be accessed at ><http://library.udayton.edu>. >Maureen A. Tilley >Coordinator of Undergraduate Studies >President, North American Patristics Society >University of Dayton, Department of Religious Studies >Dayton, OH 45469-1530 >(937) 229-4564 > > > >|---------+----------------------------------> >| | Thomas Izbicki | >| | <[log in to unmask]> | >| | Sent by: | >| | medieval-religion - | >| | Scholarly discussions | >| | of medieval religious | >| | culture | >| | <MEDIEVAL-RELIGION@JISC| >| | MAIL.AC.UK> | >| | | >| | | >| | 08/23/2005 02:23 PM | >| | Please respond to | >| | medieval-religion - | >| | Scholarly discussions | >| | of medieval religious | >| | culture | >|---------+----------------------------------> > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--------------------------------------------------| > | >| > | To: [log in to unmask] >| > | cc: >| > | Subject: Re: [M-R] Cybele and BVM >| > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--------------------------------------------------| > > > > >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > >I have seen it suggested recently, in a book on Herculaneum, that poses for >Virgin & Child might have been copied back when from Isis & Horus. Has >anyone actually done comparative work in that line? > >Copying styles, of course, is not the same as simple renaming of a godess, >which I find unlikely. > >Tom Izbicki > >Thomas Izbicki >Collection Development Coordinator >Eisenhower Library >Johns Hopkins >Baltimore, MD 21218 >(410)516-7173 >fax (410)516-8399 > > >>> [log in to unmask] 08/23/05 2:10 AM >>> >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > >I, for one, do not believe it in any sense, think it is nonsense and >impossible to back up. Claims of this sort have been around ever since >there >were Christians to persecute and will always be with us. The innate thirst >for the transcendent chafes certain people, who then find it necessary to >lash out at believers. I learned ages ago to ignore them. >MG > > > >From: Jim Bugslag <[log in to unmask]> > >Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious > > > culture <[log in to unmask]> > >To: [log in to unmask] > >Subject: Re: [M-R] saints of the day 22. August > >Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:28:02 -0500 > > > >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > > > > > > As Cybele, the Mother Goddess, has been replaced by the BVM > > > >A claim that, however much one would like to believe it in some sense, is > >very > >difficult to back up, let alone explain. Any takers? > >Cheers, > >Jim Bugslag > > > >********************************************************************** > >To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > >to: [log in to unmask] > >To send a message to the list, address it to: > >[log in to unmask] > >To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > >to: [log in to unmask] > >In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > >[log in to unmask] > >For further information, visit our web site: > >http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > >_________________________________________________________________ >Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! >http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > >********************************************************************** >To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME >to: [log in to unmask] >To send a message to the list, address it to: >[log in to unmask] >To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion >to: [log in to unmask] >In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: >[log in to unmask] >For further information, visit our web site: >http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > >********************************************************************** >To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME >to: [log in to unmask] >To send a message to the list, address it to: >[log in to unmask] >To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion >to: [log in to unmask] >In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: >[log in to unmask] >For further information, visit our web site: >http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > >********************************************************************** >To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME >to: [log in to unmask] >To send a message to the list, address it to: >[log in to unmask] >To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion >to: [log in to unmask] >In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: >[log in to unmask] >For further information, visit our web site: >http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > >********************************************************************** >To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME >to: [log in to unmask] >To send a message to the list, address it to: >[log in to unmask] >To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion >to: [log in to unmask] >In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: >[log in to unmask] >For further information, visit our web site: >http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > >********************************************************************** >To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME >to: [log in to unmask] >To send a message to the list, address it to: >[log in to unmask] >To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion >to: [log in to unmask] >In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: >[log in to unmask] >For further information, visit our web site: >http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html