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Hi all, It seems to me that there are several independent issues here which are all mixed up: 1) What period terms are useful in the SMR/HER recording context? 2) What time do these useful periods cover (start years and end years)? 3) For which SMR/HER record types can each of these useful periods be used? 4) How should period information be stored in a computer system (in HBSMR we do not store the period name against each monument type but only the start and end year)? I believe that (1) could be quite a long list which represents the complexity of the whole period issue. This complexity would need to be ordered with (3) and defined by (2). Last but not least point (4) will need to be decided by the software developers (in the HBSMR case it wouldn't need any change to the application as it can easily handle this complexity). Hope this disentangles the discussion a bit. Tobi. Tobi Tonner HBSMR Consultant exeGesIS Spatial Data Management Ltd [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> www.esdm.co.uk Main line : 01874 711145 Direct Dial : 01874 713070 This E-mail and any files transmitted with it are private and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, the E-mail and any files have been transmitted to you in error and any copying, distribution or other use of the information contained in them is strictly prohibited. Nothing in this E-mail message amounts to a contractual or other legal commitment on the part of exeGesIS SDM Ltd unless confirmed by a signed communication. exeGesIS SDM Ltd will make every effort to keep its network free of viruses. However, the recipient of this message will need to scan this message, and any attachments, for viruses, as exeGesIS SDM Ltd can take no responsibility for any computer virus that might be transferred by this e-mail. -----Original Message----- From: MacLean, Sarah [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: 26 August 2005 11:09 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Use of Periods [No Viruses detected] Dare I also mention the dreaded word backlog? I don't know how easy it would be for all of you on HBSMR to go back and change records if we added new periods but I know it would take me a while! Sarah MacLean Historic Records Officer Conservation Team Community and Enivronmental Services Northumberland County Council County Hall Morpeth NE61 2EF Telephone: 01670 534060 Fax: 01670 533086 E-mail: [log in to unmask] Website: http://www.northumberland.gov.uk & www.keystothepast.info -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Iles, Peter Sent: 26 August 2005 11:02 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Use of Periods [No Viruses detected] OK, I was exaggerating for effect and now have been hung with my own thingy. 'Descriptive' might have been a better term to use than 'interpretive' and yes, centuries are more useful in the medieval and later periods. I am not advocating the loss of the wider period terms, and do use post medieval as a term where I don't have anything better but what I am struggling against is a computer system that assigns 'Victorian' to a site I can only say is pre-1848 (i.e. shown on OS first edition 1:10,560 map). OK, I should just change the computer look-up table, but this seems to have been implemented as a 'standard' and I'm not the only one who thinks it is 'wrong'. Pete Iles -----Original Message----- From: David Evans [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: 26 August 2005 10:17 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Use of Periods [No Viruses detected] I agree completely, you make my point better than I did. Post medieval is extremely valuable. Thank You David Evans Historic Environment Record Officer Planning & Environment South Gloucestershire Council Kingswood BS15 9TR 01454 863649 -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of MacLean, Sarah Sent: 26 August 2005 10:12 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Use of Periods [No Viruses detected] This is all beginning to be a bit confusing. Yes I can see the value of using centuries from about 1500 onwards. My question is, do we still use post medieval as well though? I find it very useful for the first edition OS sites we're starting to list that are very likely to be post medieval but that we can't put a more accurate date on than that. Best wishes Sarah Sarah MacLean Historic Records Officer Conservation Team Community and Enivronmental Services Northumberland County Council County Hall Morpeth NE61 2EF Telephone: 01670 534060 Fax: 01670 533086 E-mail: [log in to unmask] Website: http://www.northumberland.gov.uk & www.keystothepast.info -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Evans Sent: 26 August 2005 09:28 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Use of Periods [No Viruses detected] So how are centuries any less interpretive than terms such as Bronze Age? I will wait for the request for information on sites dating from the second half of the first century until sometime in the fourth! I accept that post medieval is difficult for the C19 but is Victorian any better, Victorian Clifton Suspension Bridge, which it isn't!. I will keep modern, after all in the post modern period whoever is running the HERs can change it! I am going to use the terms pre Hwiccan and Hwiccan for the period up to AD 650 and after because seventh century is a nonsense! Thank You David Evans Historic Environment Record Officer Planning & Environment South Gloucestershire Council Kingswood BS15 9TR 01454 863649 -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Iles, Peter Sent: 26 August 2005 08:46 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Use of Periods Can I add a word of support to Sarah and others, - lets use the century method as a standard and use the 'named period' in the interpretation where it belongs. p.s. Kudos for Sarah's dedication to the forum, replying from hols in Italy! Peter Iles Specialist Advisor (Archaeology) Lancashire County Council Environment Directorate PO Box 9 Guild House Cross Street Preston PR1 8RD T 01772 531550 F 01772 533423 E [log in to unmask] -----Original Message----- From: Poppy Sarah [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: 25 August 2005 18:40 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: R: Use of Periods Dear Martin et al Sorry if this is yesterdays discussion but here is my pennies worth... I would agree with Julia, and say I prefer for indexing by century for the medieval and post-medieval periods (plus using WWI and WWII accordingly), which seem much less value laden, whilst using Medieval and Post-Medieval where remains can be less closely dated. However, do we need to opt for one or the other? An information retrieval system should be able to handle both together - so while 19th century may be more appropriate for archaeological remains, and Victorian would be more appropriate for built heritage, a query searching for heritage information relating to the period 1800-1900 would retrieve both as being of potential relevance, without losing the ability to query only Victorian etc. I do agree with abandoning Modern in favour of 20th and 21st century. All the best Sarah ________________________________ Da: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records per conto di NEWMAN, Martin Inviato: mar 23/08/2005 13.20 A: [log in to unmask] Oggetto: Use of Periods The DSU has recently made some changes to the PERIODS hierarchy used by the NMRs AMIE system (see below). We are now consulting with system users here before making changes to records. We would also like to consult other users of the PERIODS hierarchy especially HERs using our reference data (e.g. those using HBSMR). If your PERIOD list is brought into line with that at the NMR then the issues we are consulting NMR users over will be of equal relevance. Regards Martin ---------------------------------------------- Martin Newman Datasets Development Manager AMIE Period Change Recent changes to AMIE have seen the replacement of the MODERN period with the two periods 20TH CENTURY and 21ST CENTURY. Additional regal periods of TUDOR, ELIZABETHAN, STUART, JACOBEAN, HANOVERIAN, GEORGIAN and VICTORIAN have also been added (or in the case of VICTORIAN been in existence for some time but not used). DSU would welcome comments on how periods should be used/are being used to record POST MEDIEVAL dates. For instance there are c.173000 records in AMIE which are currently identified as being POST MEDIEVAL in date. Of those over 36,000 have min/max dates falling within the VICTORIAN period. Where a monument is known to have been built after 1837 but before 1901 does it make sense to record this as VICTORIAN? A similar number of records exist for the GEORGIAN period between 1714 and 1830. Two questions need answering: 1. Are users happy with using 20th and 21st Century instead of MODERN? 2. Should POST MEDIEVAL records be updated to VICTORIAN/GEORGIAN etc. where the phase is a construction/alteration/repair phase? ________________________________ English Heritage is subject to the Freedom of Information Act. All information held by the organisation will be accessible in response to a Freedom of Information request, unless one of the exemptions in the Act applies. The information in this email is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If you receive this email by mistake please notify the sender and delete it immediately. Opinions expressed are those of the individual and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Cambridgeshire County Council. 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