I was thinking the
same thing only the other day Kim when I was inputting listed building data.
On our system (which isn’t HBSMR) I would have to attach several different
monument types just to cover each phase of building work on some of these
buildings.
The question at the
end of the day is would more periods actually be useful when searching for
data? I admit I’ve only been here a couple of months but so far I haven’t been
asked for records on 16th century houses or Victorian wells etc.
That doesn’t mean to say I won’t be asked for that sort of data in the future,
but would additional periods be useful in the long
term?
From: Issues related to Sites & Monuments
Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of
Biddulph, Kim
Sent: 26 August 2005
14:09
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of Periods,
MIDAS II and so forth [No Viruses
detected]
Ah, but I don't think you can put
more than one display date for each monument type. What if a house was built
in the sixteenth century, extended in the seventeenth, refronted in the
eighteenth, remodelled in the nineteenth and demolished in 1935? You would
need five monument types HOUSE to record each phase. How about more than
one display date? And how about it doesn't display on the tree
tab?
Kim
Biddulph
Unlocking Buckinghamshire's Past Project
Officer
County Archaeology Service
Buckinghamshire County
Council
01296 382072
http://www.buckscc.gov.uk/countryside/
http://www.buckscc.gov.uk/archaeology/
-----Original
Message-----
From: Tobi Tonner
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 26 August 2005
13:48
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of Periods,
MIDAS II and so forth
In response
to Duncan:
I think my first
point wasn't phrased carefully enough - I actually meant:
1) What are the
period terms that are useful in the SMR/HER recording context? Is it possible
to compile a comprehensive list with the help of the
SMR/HERs?
RE point
4):
In HBSMR you can of
course record a so-called 'display date' which can contain any text (e.g.
"WWII", "1947", "Spring 2005", "Second half of 1939", ...). This does
allow the user to elaborate on the period start and end years entered.
Additionally each period time span can have a qualifier (e.g. "at some
time", "occasionally", "pre", "post", ...). Finally the confidence for
the start and end year can be entered.
Tobi.
From: BROWN, Duncan
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 26 August 2005
12:18
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Use of Periods, MIDAS
II and so forth
Happy
Friday everyone!
To support Ed's point and
in answer to Tobi:
1) All of them. Each
period term answers a specific question that a user might want to
ask.
2) Defining start and end
years for period terms is a notoriously difficult political and intellectual
minefield. But why only use 14th
century when you know you have a terminus post quem of
1358?
3) This is probably key. A
mid 20th century defensive structure can probably be described as WW2 (or any
variant thereof); specific date ranges for construction, use, disuse
and demolition might all apply. Neo-Gothic both refers to an architectural
style and to a period of construction in that style. Both are relevant because
users will want to use these terms to define their
searches. Roman refers to a period
of occupation
by the Roman
Imperium and to the cultural
products of the Roman
Empire, which both predate and
post-date that
occupation.
4)
If you only store date
ranges, without the flexibility of relating these to period terms (independent
of date ranges) how can you answer
questions like
these?
I
think this is a
question for
software developers, but
they would need to be guided by what HERs are seeking to do
- to
give specific answers to
specific questions, or to
give answers that return
results inclusive
of the terms of the
question. The latter is simpler to achieve, but the former is what users would
probably prefer.
Duncan
-----Original
Message-----
From: Issues related to
Sites & Monuments Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Tobi Tonner
Sent: 26 August 2005 11:35
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of Periods [No Viruses
detected]
Hi
all,
It seems to me that there
are several independent issues here which
are
all mixed
up:
1) What period terms are
useful in the SMR/HER recording
context?
2) What time do these
useful periods cover (start years and end
years)?
3) For which SMR/HER
record types can each of these useful periods
be
used?
4) How should period
information be stored in a computer system
(in
HBSMR we do not store the
period name against each monument type
but
only the start and end
year)?
I believe that (1) could
be quite a long list which represents
the
complexity of the whole
period issue. This complexity would need to
be
ordered with (3) and
defined by (2). Last but not least point (4)
will
need to be decided by the
software developers (in the HBSMR case
it
wouldn't need any change
to the application as it can easily handle
this
complexity).
Hope this disentangles the
discussion a bit.
Tobi.
Tobi Tonner
HBSMR
Consultant
exeGesIS Spatial Data
Management Ltd
[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
www.esdm.co.uk
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line :
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-----Original
Message-----
From:
MacLean,
Sarah [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 26 August 2005
11:09
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of
Periods [No Viruses detected]
Dare I also mention the
dreaded word backlog? I don't know how easy
it
would be for all of you on
HBSMR to go back and change records if
we
added new periods but I
know it would take me a while!
Sarah
MacLean
Historic Records
Officer
Conservation
Team
Community and
Enivronmental Services
Northumberland County
Council
County
Hall
Morpeth NE61
2EF
Telephone: 01670
534060
Fax: 01670
533086
E-mail:
[log in to unmask]
Website: http://www.northumberland.gov.uk
& www.keystothepast.info
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Issues related to Sites & Monuments
Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Iles, Peter
Sent: 26 August 2005
11:02
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of
Periods [No Viruses detected]
OK, I was exaggerating for
effect and now have been hung with my
own
thingy.
'Descriptive' might have
been a better term to use than
'interpretive'
and
yes, centuries are more
useful in the medieval and later periods.
I am not advocating the
loss of the wider period terms, and do use
post
medieval as a term where I
don't have anything better but what I
am
struggling against is a
computer system that assigns 'Victorian' to
a
site I can only say is
pre-1848 (i.e. shown on OS first edition
1:10,560
map).
OK,
I should just change the
computer look-up table, but this seems to
have
been implemented as a
'standard' and I'm not the only one who thinks
it
is
'wrong'.
Pete
Iles
-----Original
Message-----
From: David Evans [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 26 August 2005
10:17
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of
Periods [No Viruses detected]
I agree completely, you
make my point better than I did. Post
medieval
is extremely valuable.
Thank
You
David
Evans
Historic Environment
Record Officer
Planning &
Environment
South Gloucestershire
Council
Kingswood
BS15
9TR
01454
863649
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Issues related to Sites & Monuments
Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of MacLean,
Sarah
Sent: 26 August 2005
10:12
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of
Periods [No Viruses detected]
This is all beginning to
be a bit confusing. Yes I can see the value
of
using centuries from about
1500 onwards. My question is, do we still
use
post medieval as well
though? I find it very useful for the
first
edition OS sites we're
starting to list that are very likely to be
post
medieval but that we can't
put a more accurate date on than that.
Best
wishes
Sarah
Sarah
MacLean
Historic Records
Officer
Conservation
Team
Community and
Enivronmental Services
Northumberland County
Council
County
Hall
Morpeth NE61
2EF
Telephone: 01670
534060
Fax: 01670
533086
E-mail:
[log in to unmask]
Website: http://www.northumberland.gov.uk
& www.keystothepast.info
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Issues related to Sites & Monuments
Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of David Evans
Sent: 26 August 2005
09:28
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of
Periods [No Viruses detected]
So how are centuries any
less interpretive than terms such as
Bronze
Age?
I will wait for the
request for information on sites dating from
the
second half of the first
century until sometime in the fourth!
I accept that post
medieval is difficult for the C19 but is
Victorian
any better,
Victorian Clifton Suspension Bridge,
which it isn't!.
I will keep modern, after
all in the post modern period whoever
is
running the HERs can
change it!
I am going to use the
terms pre Hwiccan and Hwiccan for the period up
to
AD 650 and after because
seventh century is a nonsense!
Thank
You
David
Evans
Historic Environment
Record Officer
Planning &
Environment
South Gloucestershire
Council
Kingswood
BS15
9TR
01454
863649
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Issues related to Sites & Monuments
Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Iles, Peter
Sent: 26 August 2005
08:46
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of
Periods
Can I add a word of
support to Sarah and others, - lets use the
century
method as a standard and
use the 'named period' in the
interpretation
where it
belongs.
p.s. Kudos for Sarah's
dedication to the forum, replying from hols
in
Italy!
Peter
Iles
Specialist Advisor
(Archaeology)
Lancashire County Council Environment
Directorate PO Box 9 Guild
House
Cross
Street Preston
PR1
8RD
T 01772
531550
F 01772
533423
E
[log in to unmask]
-----Original
Message-----
From: Poppy Sarah [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 25 August 2005
18:40
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: R: Use of
Periods
Dear Martin et
al
Sorry if this is
yesterdays discussion but here is my pennies
worth...
I would agree with Julia,
and say I prefer for indexing by century
for
the medieval and
post-medieval periods (plus using WWI and
WWII
accordingly), which seem
much less value laden, whilst using
Medieval
and Post-Medieval where
remains can be less closely dated. However,
do
we need to opt for one or
the other? An information retrieval
system
should be able to handle
both together - so while 19th century may
be
more appropriate for
archaeological remains, and Victorian would be
more
appropriate for built
heritage, a query searching for
heritage
information relating to
the period 1800-1900 would retrieve both
as
being of potential
relevance, without losing the ability to query
only
Victorian
etc.
I do agree with abandoning
Modern in favour of 20th and 21st century.
All the
best
Sarah
________________________________
Da:
Issues related to Sites & Monuments
Records per conto di
NEWMAN,
Martin
Inviato: mar 23/08/2005
13.20
A:
[log in to unmask]
Oggetto: Use of
Periods
The DSU has recently made
some changes to the PERIODS hierarchy used
by
the NMRs AMIE system (see
below). We are now consulting with
system
users here before making
changes to records. We would also like
to
consult other users of the
PERIODS hierarchy especially HERs using
our
reference data
(e.g.
those using HBSMR). If
your PERIOD list is brought into line with
that
at the NMR then the issues
we are consulting NMR users over will be
of
equal
relevance.
Regards
Martin
----------------------------------------------
Martin
Newman
Datasets Development
Manager
AMIE Period
Change
Recent changes to AMIE
have seen the replacement of the MODERN
period
with the two periods 20TH
CENTURY and 21ST CENTURY.
Additional regal periods
of TUDOR, ELIZABETHAN, STUART,
JACOBEAN,
HANOVERIAN, GEORGIAN and
VICTORIAN have also been added (or in the
case
of VICTORIAN been in
existence for some time but not used).
DSU would welcome comments
on how periods should be used/are being
used
to record POST MEDIEVAL
dates.
For instance there are
c.173000 records in AMIE which are
currently
identified as being POST
MEDIEVAL in date. Of those over 36,000
have
min/max dates falling
within the VICTORIAN period.
Where a monument is known
to have been built after 1837 but before
1901
does it make sense to
record this as VICTORIAN?
A similar number of
records exist for the GEORGIAN period between
1714
and
1830.
Two questions need
answering:
1.
Are users happy with using 20th and 21st Century instead
of
MODERN?
2.
Should POST MEDIEVAL records be updated to
VICTORIAN/GEORGIAN
etc.
where the phase is a
construction/alteration/repair phase?
________________________________
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