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Until a more satisfactory solution can be found I currently use period / specific date fields to record the entire date range of a building, covering its construction, any alterations, extensions etc (eg C16-C19) and then provide more details in the description field. That way I don't have to enter a building more than once and can ensure that it is picked up in any specific period search requested. ****************************** Tracy Matthews Sites and Monuments Officer Winchester City Council 75 Hyde Street Winchester SO23 7DW tel: 01962 848 380 fax: 01962 848 299 email: [log in to unmask] -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of MacLean, Sarah Sent: 26 August 2005 14:14 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Use of Periods, MIDAS II and so forth [No Viruses detected] I was thinking the same thing only the other day Kim when I was inputting listed building data. On our system (which isn't HBSMR) I would have to attach several different monument types just to cover each phase of building work on some of these buildings. The question at the end of the day is would more periods actually be useful when searching for data? I admit I've only been here a couple of months but so far I haven't been asked for records on 16th century houses or Victorian wells etc. That doesn't mean to say I won't be asked for that sort of data in the future, but would additional periods be useful in the long term? Sarah MacLean Historic Records Officer Conservation Team Community and Enivronmental Services Northumberland County Council County Hall Morpeth NE61 2EF Telephone: 01670 534060 Fax: 01670 533086 E-mail: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> Website: http://www.northumberland.gov.uk <http://www.northumberland.gov.uk> & www.keystothepast.info <http://www.keystothepast.info> ________________________________ From: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Biddulph, Kim Sent: 26 August 2005 14:09 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Use of Periods, MIDAS II and so forth [No Viruses detected] Ah, but I don't think you can put more than one display date for each monument type. What if a house was built in the sixteenth century, extended in the seventeenth, refronted in the eighteenth, remodelled in the nineteenth and demolished in 1935? You would need five monument types HOUSE to record each phase. How about more than one display date? And how about it doesn't display on the tree tab? Kim Biddulph Unlocking Buckinghamshire's Past Project Officer County Archaeology Service Buckinghamshire County Council 01296 382072 http://www.buckscc.gov.uk/countryside/ http://www.buckscc.gov.uk/archaeology/ -----Original Message----- From: Tobi Tonner [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: 26 August 2005 13:48 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Use of Periods, MIDAS II and so forth In response to Duncan: I think my first point wasn't phrased carefully enough - I actually meant: 1) What are the period terms that are useful in the SMR/HER recording context? Is it possible to compile a comprehensive list with the help of the SMR/HERs? RE point 4): In HBSMR you can of course record a so-called 'display date' which can contain any text (e.g. "WWII", "1947", "Spring 2005", "Second half of 1939", ...). This does allow the user to elaborate on the period start and end years entered. Additionally each period time span can have a qualifier (e.g. "at some time", "occasionally", "pre", "post", ...). Finally the confidence for the start and end year can be entered. Tobi. ________________________________ From: BROWN, Duncan [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: 26 August 2005 12:18 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Use of Periods, MIDAS II and so forth Happy Friday everyone! To support Ed's point and in answer to Tobi: 1) All of them. Each period term answers a specific question that a user might want to ask. 2) Defining start and end years for period terms is a notoriously difficult political and intellectual minefield. But why only use 14th century when you know you have a terminus post quem of 1358? 3) This is probably key. A mid 20th century defensive structure can probably be described as WW2 (or any variant thereof); specific date ranges for construction, use, disuse and demolition might all apply. Neo-Gothic both refers to an architectural style and to a period of construction in that style. Both are relevant because users will want to use these terms to define their searches. Roman refers to a period of occupation by the Roman Imperium and to the cultural products of the Roman Empire, which both predate and post-date that occupation. 4) If you only store date ranges, without the flexibility of relating these to period terms (independent of date ranges) how can you answer questions like these? I think this is a question for software developers, but they would need to be guided by what HERs are seeking to do - to give specific answers to specific questions, or to give answers that return results inclusive of the terms of the question. The latter is simpler to achieve, but the former is what users would probably prefer. Duncan -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tobi Tonner Sent: 26 August 2005 11:35 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Use of Periods [No Viruses detected] Hi all, It seems to me that there are several independent issues here which are all mixed up: 1) What period terms are useful in the SMR/HER recording context? 2) What time do these useful periods cover (start years and end years)? 3) For which SMR/HER record types can each of these useful periods be used? 4) How should period information be stored in a computer system (in HBSMR we do not store the period name against each monument type but only the start and end year)? I believe that (1) could be quite a long list which represents the complexity of the whole period issue. This complexity would need to be ordered with (3) and defined by (2). Last but not least point (4) will need to be decided by the software developers (in the HBSMR case it wouldn't need any change to the application as it can easily handle this complexity). Hope this disentangles the discussion a bit. Tobi. Tobi Tonner HBSMR Consultant exeGesIS Spatial Data Management Ltd [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> www.esdm.co.uk Main line : 01874 711145 Direct Dial : 01874 713070 This E-mail and any files transmitted with it are private and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, the E-mail and any files have been transmitted to you in error and any copying, distribution or other use of the information contained in them is strictly prohibited. Nothing in this E-mail message amounts to a contractual or other legal commitment on the part of exeGesIS SDM Ltd unless confirmed by a signed communication. exeGesIS SDM Ltd will make every effort to keep its network free of viruses. However, the recipient of this message will need to scan this message, and any attachments, for viruses, as exeGesIS SDM Ltd can take no responsibility for any computer virus that might be transferred by this e-mail. -----Original Message----- From: MacLean, Sarah [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: 26 August 2005 11:09 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Use of Periods [No Viruses detected] Dare I also mention the dreaded word backlog? I don't know how easy it would be for all of you on HBSMR to go back and change records if we added new periods but I know it would take me a while! Sarah MacLean Historic Records Officer Conservation Team Community and Enivronmental Services Northumberland County Council County Hall Morpeth NE61 2EF Telephone: 01670 534060 Fax: 01670 533086 E-mail: [log in to unmask] Website: http://www.northumberland.gov.uk & www.keystothepast.info -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Iles, Peter Sent: 26 August 2005 11:02 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Use of Periods [No Viruses detected] OK, I was exaggerating for effect and now have been hung with my own thingy. 'Descriptive' might have been a better term to use than 'interpretive' and yes, centuries are more useful in the medieval and later periods. I am not advocating the loss of the wider period terms, and do use post medieval as a term where I don't have anything better but what I am struggling against is a computer system that assigns 'Victorian' to a site I can only say is pre-1848 (i.e. shown on OS first edition 1:10,560 map). OK, I should just change the computer look-up table, but this seems to have been implemented as a 'standard' and I'm not the only one who thinks it is 'wrong'. Pete Iles -----Original Message----- From: David Evans [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: 26 August 2005 10:17 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Use of Periods [No Viruses detected] I agree completely, you make my point better than I did. Post medieval is extremely valuable. Thank You David Evans Historic Environment Record Officer Planning & Environment South Gloucestershire Council Kingswood BS15 9TR 01454 863649 -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of MacLean, Sarah Sent: 26 August 2005 10:12 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Use of Periods [No Viruses detected] This is all beginning to be a bit confusing. Yes I can see the value of using centuries from about 1500 onwards. My question is, do we still use post medieval as well though? I find it very useful for the first edition OS sites we're starting to list that are very likely to be post medieval but that we can't put a more accurate date on than that. Best wishes Sarah Sarah MacLean Historic Records Officer Conservation Team Community and Enivronmental Services Northumberland County Council County Hall Morpeth NE61 2EF Telephone: 01670 534060 Fax: 01670 533086 E-mail: [log in to unmask] Website: http://www.northumberland.gov.uk & www.keystothepast.info -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Evans Sent: 26 August 2005 09:28 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Use of Periods [No Viruses detected] So how are centuries any less interpretive than terms such as Bronze Age? I will wait for the request for information on sites dating from the second half of the first century until sometime in the fourth! I accept that post medieval is difficult for the C19 but is Victorian any better, Victorian Clifton Suspension Bridge, which it isn't!. I will keep modern, after all in the post modern period whoever is running the HERs can change it! I am going to use the terms pre Hwiccan and Hwiccan for the period up to AD 650 and after because seventh century is a nonsense! Thank You David Evans Historic Environment Record Officer Planning & Environment South Gloucestershire Council Kingswood BS15 9TR 01454 863649 -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Iles, Peter Sent: 26 August 2005 08:46 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Use of Periods Can I add a word of support to Sarah and others, - lets use the century method as a standard and use the 'named period' in the interpretation where it belongs. p.s. Kudos for Sarah's dedication to the forum, replying from hols in Italy! Peter Iles Specialist Advisor (Archaeology) Lancashire County Council Environment Directorate PO Box 9 Guild House Cross Street Preston PR1 8RD T 01772 531550 F 01772 533423 E [log in to unmask] -----Original Message----- From: Poppy Sarah [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: 25 August 2005 18:40 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: R: Use of Periods Dear Martin et al Sorry if this is yesterdays discussion but here is my pennies worth... I would agree with Julia, and say I prefer for indexing by century for the medieval and post-medieval periods (plus using WWI and WWII accordingly), which seem much less value laden, whilst using Medieval and Post-Medieval where remains can be less closely dated. However, do we need to opt for one or the other? An information retrieval system should be able to handle both together - so while 19th century may be more appropriate for archaeological remains, and Victorian would be more appropriate for built heritage, a query searching for heritage information relating to the period 1800-1900 would retrieve both as being of potential relevance, without losing the ability to query only Victorian etc. I do agree with abandoning Modern in favour of 20th and 21st century. All the best Sarah ________________________________ Da: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records per conto di NEWMAN, Martin Inviato: mar 23/08/2005 13.20 A: [log in to unmask] Oggetto: Use of Periods The DSU has recently made some changes to the PERIODS hierarchy used by the NMRs AMIE system (see below). We are now consulting with system users here before making changes to records. We would also like to consult other users of the PERIODS hierarchy especially HERs using our reference data (e.g. those using HBSMR). If your PERIOD list is brought into line with that at the NMR then the issues we are consulting NMR users over will be of equal relevance. Regards Martin ---------------------------------------------- Martin Newman Datasets Development Manager AMIE Period Change Recent changes to AMIE have seen the replacement of the MODERN period with the two periods 20TH CENTURY and 21ST CENTURY. Additional regal periods of TUDOR, ELIZABETHAN, STUART, JACOBEAN, HANOVERIAN, GEORGIAN and VICTORIAN have also been added (or in the case of VICTORIAN been in existence for some time but not used). DSU would welcome comments on how periods should be used/are being used to record POST MEDIEVAL dates. For instance there are c.173000 records in AMIE which are currently identified as being POST MEDIEVAL in date. Of those over 36,000 have min/max dates falling within the VICTORIAN period. Where a monument is known to have been built after 1837 but before 1901 does it make sense to record this as VICTORIAN? A similar number of records exist for the GEORGIAN period between 1714 and 1830. Two questions need answering: 1. Are users happy with using 20th and 21st Century instead of MODERN? 2. Should POST MEDIEVAL records be updated to VICTORIAN/GEORGIAN etc. where the phase is a construction/alteration/repair phase? ________________________________ English Heritage is subject to the Freedom of Information Act. All information held by the organisation will be accessible in response to a Freedom of Information request, unless one of the exemptions in the Act applies. The information in this email is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If you receive this email by mistake please notify the sender and delete it immediately. Opinions expressed are those of the individual and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Cambridgeshire County Council. 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