This is a tricky subject - the experience of embodiment - the body and it's appetites. The Western view of sexual desire and perhaps on the other hand, feelings or emotions - is probably very different than what some of these Muslim men may be experiencing.  As it is, talking about gender, men are different than women in this area - so it's not difficult to imagine that people - or in this case - men - with an Islam identity, might see themselves as having different desires than Western men. Women in the west are now encouraged to think about sex in the same way western men do, despite there being gender differences.  Those who don't fit in - who see sex in other ways - are going to be seen as different - quite likely as outsiders.  So are men from other cultures also expected to behave like western men?   The body and its desires are influenced by culture, though western men aren't likely to see themselves as "disciplining themselves" when they learn how to dissociate from their feelings in sexual matters. 
 
Not all of these men, these suicide terrorists in London, were nasty, obviously hateful people.  Rather than say their life experience was an embodied experience, we can say just say that their embodied place within society probably has something to do with what happened, in one or more cases. Just like gays sense of their own embodiedness in society used to be an alienating experience - and women's too (and may still be) - so may these men, with their different views on life and sex, have felt alienated.  That's not the whole problem, of course, but these men were British-born and raised.
 
Sue McPherson  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">ian JAMISON
To: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: the disaffected

 
I think that the whole question of the integration/non-integration of second and third generation Islamic men in the west is interesting, indeed, my own experience of teaching Religious Studies in a Midlands school with a high Muslim population is one that I found particularly challenging, as "Islam" is the only identity that resonates with many of these young men - who don't feel British, and who don't feel Pakistani. 
I am curious however, as to the extent to which this alienation is an "embodied" phenomenon - indeed, for many of those who turn to the more extreme forms of Islam, they are choosing to further alienate themselves from the experience of embodiment - the body and it's appetites are seen as something to be overcome, and disciplined into submission - an idea that perhaps reaches it's nadir in the act of suicide bombing.  There would be, I would humbly suggest, more mileage for discussion in this area - the "anti-embodiment", if you will, of the suicide bomber. 
I think that, as Graham suggested, an attempt to read the alienation that provokes suicide bombing as an embodied experience, is pushing the limits of this particular area of theory.
Ian


From: Interdisciplinary discussion on human embodiment [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sue McPherson
Sent: 18 July 2005 16:26
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: the disaffected

The govt's focus on terrorist suicide bombers in the UK has been on their religion, and influence on them from abroad, with the unaswered question of why it was "British" suicide bombers.  Where is the focus on this country itself, and how it alienates individuals who do not conform to its norms, no matter how ridicualous or insensitive or improper they may seem to others.
 
I imagine those who see this as irrelevant are quite well integrated into this society, and probaby wouldn't recognise that their beliefs and ways of behaving in soicety are actually part of the ideology, therfore taken for granted.
 
Sue McPherson
 
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">alex RYAN
To: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: the disaffected

Please justify your use of this list for those two recent emails on suicide bombers - what exactly do you mean by ‘there could be something in this’ - are we getting into junk (i.e. unsolicited) politics mail here? I have my own private networks for political email forwarding and don’t want to see this kind of use of a group list, particularly when the agenda is not made clear. Or is there some non-obvious connection to a debate about embodiment…??

 

 

Alex Ryan

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Interdisciplinary discussion on human embodiment [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sue McPherson
Sent: 18 July 2005 14:50
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: the disaffected

 

There could be something in this (see article below), if the authorities cared to investigate. Fazel isn't the only one uncomfortable with Western mores, and out of a job. Unfortunately, talking to the educated isn't the solution, as they are just as likely to be under the influence of society's mores as any other group. 

 

Sue McPherson.

 

 

Jul. 18, 2005. 01:00 AM

Angry and ripe for the picking
Young Briton keen to join extremists
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1121638810181&call_page=TS_World

&call_pageid=968332188854&call_pagepath=News/World&pubid=968163964505&StarSource=email&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes

`I would go if they approached me'

SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI
ASSOCIATED PRESS

LEEDS, England—Fazel, a 19-year-old British-born Muslim who is angry about his "immoral" surroundings, seems ripe for the picking by the recruiters of Islamic extremism. "I would go if they approached me," he says.


"I want to get away from here. I don't have a job. I want to learn everything about Islam," said Fazel, who refused to give his last name during an interview Saturday at a mosque here. His remarks suggested he hoped to find his way to a Muslim country where he could further study the religion and develop his beliefs.

Like three of the four named suspects in the July 7 suicide bombings in London, Fazel was born in Leeds. His parents were from the Pakistan-controlled portion of disputed Kashmir. Three of the four bombers also had Pakistani parents. The fourth alleged attacker was born in Jamaica but converted to Islam while growing up in Luton, north of London.

Islamic radicals inside the British Muslim community who are searching for men to become suicide attackers or foot soldiers in the global jihad are thought to recruit disaffected young men like Fazel, sending them for religious or military training in Islamic countries.

For example, Shahzad Tanweer, a 22-year-old member of the alleged bombing team, reportedly visited two religious schools on a trip to Pakistan.
Fazel's comments came as British officials rejected criticism that lax policies toward Muslim political refugees helped facilitate terror recruiters.

"In terms of asylum, our policy is: If you are in fear of persecution, you are entitled to come here," Charles Falconer, Secretary for Constitutional Affairs, said yesterday on BBC television. "Obviously, if you then seek to attack the very state that you come to, that gives rise to different questions."

Despite Fazel's growing contempt for Western mores, he said he disagreed with the London bombings of four Underground trains and a bus because "Islamic scholars said it was wrong." The attackers "should have talked to more educated people."

He denounced, however, Prime Minister Tony Blair's characterization that the bombers were inspired by an "evil ideology."

"The evil programs on TV, the music, the literature, the magazines ... are all responsible for the terrorist attacks. People are becoming rebellious because they are against fornication, gambling, alcohol."

"Until they get rid of Eminem and Marilyn Manson, they can't get rid of our preachers," he said.

Fazel called himself a former kafar (infidel), who once enjoyed drinking with his friends and the company of young women.

Then, in the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks on New York and Washington, he read about Al Qaeda and its leader, Osama bin Laden.
Images of the twin towers of the World Trade Center collapsing, he said, fuelled his curiosity about the faith of his ancestors.

"Allah pointed me to him (bin Laden)," said Fazel, dressed in a white shalwar kameez, the traditional loose tunic-and-trouser common to men in South Asia.

The young man denied he was confused about his faith and asserted just as vehemently that he did not "give a damn about the world."
Zahir Birawi, an official at the mosque where Fazel was interviewed, later said he had seen the young man a few times at prayers and assured a reporter Fazel's views were not normal.

He said officials at the mosque would tell police about Fazel if his views did not moderate.