 |
 |
I would presume the triangle between the sternal and clavicular head of sternomastoid Andy Webster Registrar in Emergency Medicine Sir Charles Gairdner Hospital _____ From: Accident and Emergency Academic List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nick Jenkins Sent: 02 June 2005 16:34 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Bone injection guns Could I ask an ignorant question???? When Rowley says Anterior Triangle are we talking Anatomical anterior triangle (midline with right and left sternomastoids and mandible as it's boundaries - in which case 'low in the anterior triangle' is strictly midline - or the triangle between the sternal and clavicular head of sternomastoid? Genuine question and not trying to be a smartass - these lines aren't my strongest and any advice is welcome - as long as I don't get the wrong end of the stick!! Nick Jenkins A&E Consultant, Abergavenny http://www.emergencynhh.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: Accident and Emergency Academic List [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Dunn Matthew Dr. (RJC) A & E - SwarkHosp-TR Sent: 02 June 2005 09:20 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Bone injection guns > Could not disagree more. It's training issue; I can obtain internal > jugular access with a straight single pipe like a Wallace in under 10 > seconds. There are three key points. > > 1. Head down. > > 2. Go low in the anterior triangle. > > 3. Aim for the opposing femoral head. > > Guaranteed; venous puncture every time. I'd add: Go for the right side (straighter course, further from the lung and thoracic duct) Don't overrotate or overextend the neck Take your finger off the artery (which seems to be the commonest reason for failure) Not guaranteed every time. Some patients have anomalous veins; some have no vein; some have a vein that collapses with inspiration or the pressure of the needle. There are certainly a few where it is impossible for anyone to put a jugular line in. Ultrasound should identify these in a couple of seconds. Not saying there's anything wrong with an experienced person putting in the jugular line. However, if someone's not that slick with it (as was suggested by the original post), there are other routes (each with their own problems) that could also be considered. My post was in reply to a post saying that the BIG was a lot faster than an IJ line. If you can get a line in in 10 seconds, it isn't. If you can't, you might want to think about a different technique. These days, US guidance will prevent most of the failures, and speed you up in some cases. > Sorry Matt, don't agree. One of the many things I have > learned about trauma > (whilst working in South Africa) was that the only vein you > can rely on to > stay open is the subclavian. Doesn't always stay open. I've seen failures to put in subclavians, and have scanned a few collapsed or absent veins. Also, veins that stay open when the pressure's negative tend to suck in air. Not an absolute contraindication, but a relative one. Down to individual skill with the approach. Advantage of cut down is that it is the only way you can reliably cannulate a collapsed vein. Reason for long saph at the groin is that it's probably the quickest (in an unconscious patient) and easiest place to cut down. There are host of reasons why you wouldn't put in a either a femoral line or a long saph cut down, but they're both useful techniques to know. In cases where it's impossible to use your favourite technique, it's worth having a couple of backups, though- so femoral line, long saphenous cut down and IO needles all have their place. My other point was that if you're not certain and you're in difficulty, assess whether it's better to go in and risk complications or get someone more experienced with the balance of a longer wait and higher complication risk. If you make the call as soon as you've assessed that the patient is sick enough to maybe need a central line; and start prepping while you're waiting, the extra wait shouldn't be long. As before, these days we've got ultrasound. Means you can tell which veins will be easy before you put needle (or knife) to flesh. > Another issue I want to clear up is I never said we were > using BIG/Fast-1 in > trauma. The majority of IO attempts were made for arrests. Now there I'm with you. In non traumatic adult arrests I go for the subclavian myself (although with very few exceptions I remain to be convinced of the benefits of giving anything IV in the early stages of an adult cardiac arrest). I'd thought of the adult IOs for trauma as that was what I'd heard about most (mainly from Israel) > I agree that you may need an anaesthetic registrar there from > an airway > point of view (although we never did in Jo'burg) but as > emergency physicians > shouldn't we be capable of running a trauma? Yes. My post was in response to a post suggesting that the IOs were useful if there wasn't an A and E consultant present and (probably central) venous cannulation was beyond the skills of the A and E middle grade. It is entirely possible to get a job as an A and E middle grade with little experience in central line insertion. If you can't get an A and E consultant in fast enough (and some are neither resident nor living close to their hospitals), you ought to have an anaesthetic registrar to hand. As an aside, the term "running a trauma" is one we maybe ought to be moving away from. Trauma is essentially a surgical disease- treatment takes place in an operating theatre. All we do is to make an initial assessment of severity of the trauma, make sure the patient is ventilating OK and speed up the process of controlling the bleeding. The surgeon runs the trauma (in an ideal situation), we serve as a support speciality (like anaesthetics and radiology). No evidence that pre- op fluids benefit trauma cases; some papers showing they worsen outcome. From time to time you have to accept that you aren't the one who saves the patient. Matt Dunn Warwick This email has been scanned for viruses by NAI AVD however we are unable to accept responsibility for any damage caused by the contents. The opinions expressed in this email represent the views of the sender, not South Warwickshire General Hospitals NHS Trust unless explicitly stated. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender. The information contained in this email may be subject to public disclosure under the NHS Code of Openness or the Freedom of Information Act 2000. Unless the information is legally exempt from disclosure, the confidentiality of this e-mail and your reply cannot be guaranteed. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. ________________________________________________________________________ Doctors.net.uk e-mail is protected from spam and viruses Doctors.net.uk - the network of 114,000 UK doctors ________________________________________________________________________