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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Or as Karl Rahner wrote in this context, It is always appropriate to ask another Christian for prayers. DW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Martin" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 3:09 PM Subject: Re: [M-R] Intercession of the saints medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture The short answer is "Immediately." If one believes that the person was so holy as to be in the presence of God, one may ask him or her to pray on one's behalf. (The request for intercession is not really a prayer to the putative saint but a request that the putative saint pray with the requester to Christ; the possibility of communication with the deceased in this manner is possible only because both the requester and the requesteee are in the communion of saints, that is, in the body of Christ--the mytery of the unity of fThellow believers is what connects the inhabitants of heaven and those of earth after the departure from earth--the power of Christ makes this possible, so communication with the dead is not a form of conjuring the dead which is forbidden in Scripture). Of course the person may not have directly entered God's presence (if not perfectly holy), so the putative saint is prayed to in a tentative way by those devoted to him or her. Martyrs directly enter God's presence, so in such cases requests for intercession may be addressed with confidence. In other cases they are tentative and private only. Since the 1640s (Urban VIII) it is strictly forbidden to address formal liturgical intercession requests to anyone whose cause has not been investigated by the canonical procedures leading to beatification and canonization. Conducting formal liturgical veneration and requesting intercession in an official, formal capacity, Urban VIII decreed, would actually make impossible any future beatification or canonization of the person. The procedures in earlier centuries were less strict but even there, requests for intercession by someone who died in the reputation of sanctity would be addressed freely on a private basis, which constituted the beginning of an unofficial cultus. Beatification and canonization effectively simply make formal and official (by adding it to the liturgical calendar) such a private and unofficial cultus. Urban VIII left open the possiblity of adding people to the liturgical rolls on the basis of longstanding (centuries-long) unofficial cultus because proper investigation of the lives of people who lived a 1000 years ago was very difficult,so, if unbroken cultus could be established, it was accepted as a sort of grandfather clause. Thus, private requests are always permitted but formal liturgical cultus is forbidden.. Miracles that result from such private requests from devotesthen become potential evidence in an eventual investigation for beatification. Where someone was widely reputed to be of outstanding holines (Mother Teresa, for example) or even so reputed within the circle of his or her religious order or circle of devotes during his lifetime (Padre Pio), an association usually forms to act as a clearing house for reported miracles and other documentation to be eventually taken up by the formal investigation for beatification. When a formal cause is introduced (following a preliminary diocesan investigation), the person may then be called "Venerable So and So" and "Servant of God" but formal liturgical cultus is still prohibited. Thus, many people began requesting the intercession of John Paul II moments after his death was confirmed. Posthumous miracle reports I would assume have aleady begun flowing into to Rome--many of them probably unsubstantiatable, but some might eventually merit investigation). In short, all that is required to request the intercession of someone who has died a Christian, is the private belief that this person might be in heaven. If one had evidence that the person had died defiant of Christian faith, such requests would be inappropriate. But such requests always have an element of tentativeness about them, even if the person making them truly, with all assurance, is convinced the deceased is in heaven. His private confidence cannot be extended to anything more than that--private, personal belief. Dennis Martin >>> [log in to unmask] 05/24/05 2:29 PM >>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Dear Listmembers, one of my students again today came up with an interesting question that I pass on to you from the depths of my own ignorance: at what point does the intercession of saints begin? That is, at what point are the Christian dead no longer simply venerated as models of Christian life and death but begin to have prayers addressed to them, asking for favors and miracles, and the like? JBW John Wickstrom Department of History Kalamazoo College [log in to unmask] ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html