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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture There really isn't a problem. I know we all talk off the cuff on discussion lists so I am not being so much critical as tongue in cheek chiding. When the discussion first began, I just thought everyone knew that the 'Harrowing of Hell' probably arose from the First Peter passage. But I just wanted to chide Bill with a reminder that there is a big leap from First Peter to the medieval Harrowing of Hell myth. --V. K. Inman Quoting Gyorgy Gereby <[log in to unmask]>: > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > Dear Kerry, > > I really don't see your problem. > > People between the 1st c. CE and - let's say - 17th c. CE usually thought > this way, under different presuppositions than we do today. When THEY did > exegesis, they did it along the line Bill suggested. (My posting was in this > vein, too.) THEY certainly did see these and similar connections. WE, as > historians, are establishing, reconstructing and - hopefully charitably - > helping to understand THEIR views for colleagues and non-specialists. > > So what's the the trivial methodological failure in reporting a historically > valid exegesis? (Historically valid = held by, applied by certain groups > along the history of Xtianity, according to the best of our available > sources) > > In my view it would be a gross mistake to expect THEM in an earlier period to > see texts WE (or some of us) do, or, conversely, to reproach them for not > having applied our principles of exegesis. We do have to develop, as > historians, a certain sensitivity for other types of exegesis than those in > vogue today (also ephemeral, by pure induction). > > What's more, even if I did not have this passage (1Peter 3:18 sq) in mind, I > think Bill is right (and I'm grateful for calling my attention to it)! The > entering of the phylakee (cf. the synonymous desmooteerion of the > Republic!!!) is a clear indication that it could serve as the scriptural > basis for the Harrowing of Hell (breaking the gates of the prison of death > and saving the saints born before Christ) theologeme. > > Best, > George > > > G. Gereby > associate professor > Ancient and Mediaeval Philosophy Department, Eötvös Loránd University > Budapest > recurrent associate professor > Medieval Studies Dept. > Central European University > Budapest V. > Nador u. 9. > H-1051 Hungary > [log in to unmask] > + 36.1.3273046 office > >>> [log in to unmask] 04/06/05 10:15 PM >>> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > c'mon Bill. How do you get this from that? Certainly not by exegesis. > There > are so many missing details to the account in First Peter that its meaning > could be construed several ways--the medieval myth is just one possible way > of > understanding First Peter. What is of significance here, in my opinion, is > that this is an illustration of the sort of scriptural text--vague and > obscure > like the Melkizedek one--which gives rise to extra Biblical myths. Then > again > isn't there is a fundamental difference between catholic and protestant > perspectives on extra biblical material? > > --V. Kerry Inman > > Quoting Bill East <[log in to unmask]>: > > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > > > > > > > "Ms Brenda M. Cook" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Apart > > from the "Gospel" of Nicodemus this is the earliest known exposition of > this > > myth which tells of the triumphal descent into Hell of Christ immediately > > following the Crucifixion, to release the souls of the righteous from Adam > > to John the Baptist, who had died before the Atonement was achieved. > > > > > > Respondeo: > > > > Not forgetting of course 1 Peter 3:19 ff.: "In the body he was put to > death, > > in the spirit he was raised to life, and in the the spirit, he went to > preach > > to the spirits in prison... And because he is their judge too, the dead had > > to be told the Good News as well, so that though, in their life on earth, > > they had been through the judgement that comes to all humanity, they might > > come to God's life in the spirit." > > > > Bill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > ********************************************************************** > > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > > to: [log in to unmask] > > To send a message to the list, address it to: > > [log in to unmask] > > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > > to: [log in to unmask] > > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > > [log in to unmask] > > For further information, visit our web site: > > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > ********************************************************************** > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] > For further information, visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > ********************************************************************** > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] > For further information, visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html