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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture These are interesting comments. I would suggest -- unless one of the authors mentioned has already done so -- that a look in Pausanias at all the black statues he mentions as objects of cult might be of use. DW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Crockett" <[log in to unmask]> From: John Briggs <[log in to unmask]> >The reason for all these black madonnas is that they are made of wood, which has blackened over the centuries. as far as i am aware, this is not true. although most woods do "darken" --i wouldn't say "blacken"-- with age (and oak more than most, a reaction of the natural tanin in the wood with the oxygen in the air), the simple fact is that most (all?) figural carving (in wood, stone and even ivory) in the early and high m.a. was polychromed. and, freqently, repainted as needed, black face and hands as well. here's the present statue at Rocamadour, in "Blackface" : http://www.pilgrimsall.org/placesofpilgrimage/r/Roc07.html and the one at Merlande: http://www.pilgrimsall.org/placesofpilgrimage/m/NDMeymac.html another possibility for "blackening" is the accumulation of soot from devotional candles over many decades/centuries. candles in the m.a. were made of good old-fashioned beeswax, rather than the typically cheap and tawdry paraffin favored by the modren Cult, and therefore burned with much less smoke, stench and soot. there would still be some blackening, surely, but it wouldn't be selective, only affecting the exposed skin of the figure. in addition to candles, we have ample textual and visual evidence of lamps playing an important role in the shrines associated with cult statues, and these presumably burned "oil" --what kind of "oil", i don't know; perhaps, in the South, olive, but surely not in the North, where fat may have been used(???). there certainly would be some soot from that source, as well. and, presumably, lamps and candles would have been kept burning perpetually before and around the statue, as we see today in several places, most notably (for me) at the shrine of "Notre-Dame du Pilier" in Chartres cathedral: http://www.pilgrimsall.org/placesofpilgrimage/c/ND%20du%20Pilier.html the question then becomes: Why isn't every Madonna cult statue in Europe a "Black Madonna"? ebony was mentioned on some otherwise unidentified "reliable" website, but that Dog won't Hunt either, there not being much ebony thick on the ground in Northern Europe in the M.A. (or now, for that matter). i know of no european species which is naturally black (though the heartwood of very old growth oak can be very, very dark brown) --but, even if there were one, that would just beg the question: Why was a black wood chosen as a medium for carving a Madonna, and, if it indeed were, why was it left unpainted? From: Marjorie Greene <[log in to unmask]> > A website that appears reputable has this to say: > "If it is true that a large proportion of the ancient miraculous Madonnas of the world are black, i question whether this assertion is supportable. and, one thing which must be kept in mind here is that we have surely *lost* about 99% of all such statuary which ever existed, so the percentage of a certain type which still survives is a very, very skewed sample, probably reflecting more of early modren sensibilities than middlevil ones. >why is this phenomenon generally so little known today? mmm.... i donno, because our own Age is particularly "Dark"?? > A poetic verse from 1629 catalogues some of the national shrines of Europe, all of which, at the heart, seem to represent an ancient tradition of devotion to a statue of the Black Virgin. a perfect example of the naive use of a skewed source. >Many such Black Virgins exist, often having survived centuries of war, yes, if they still exist, they have survived centuries of Europe's favorite Passtime. >some are statues carved from ebony. if talking about genuine middlevil statues, an assertion which is absurd on its face. not much ebony growing in Northern Europe in the m.a., i believe. > Some of the most famous Black Virgin shrines are Chartes SIC. >Loreto, Zaragoza, Rocamadour, Montserrat, and Guadalupe. that last is just a *tad* late. >Early textual references describing images of Black Virgins are few, although... St. Bernard of Clairvaux (an early leader of the medieval Knights Templar) my temptation is to begin to make a judgement about the quality of this "reputable" site (URL?) based on things like the characterisation of St. Bernie as "an early leader of the Knights Templar"... as in: DUH? Say WHAT?? > Many Christians, both clergy and laity, simply accept that these shrines to the Black Virgin, and the loyal, fervent devotion they foster, are ultimately inexplicable, a mystery of the divine feminine. yes. begging yet another question. >Some writers believe they represent a Christian form of Isis, as a mother with child. no doubt "some writers" do. > These shrines are believed to have special healing powers, among other things, and to be places where newly married brides can go for fertility blessings. not surprising attributes, for a Mother Godess. >There is also a strong religious folk tradition connecting the Black Virgins to the medieval Knights Templar there's that Templar Topos again, popping up like a Bad Penny. >A famous Black Virgin - la Madone des Fenestres (the Madonna of the Windows), near St-Martin-de-Vesubie (one site where many Templars were massacred) and again. say, does this site talk about the Shroud of Turin, too? >it is still intriguing to examine the sheer number of such place-names, legends, and beliefs about these subjects and their interconnections, at least in the popular mind. And that in itself says something." yes. it is. just *what* it is saying is the question at hand, however. > I don't believe that the "black" in question has anything to do with Benedictines, traditionally called "black monks," because of the color of their habits. My question was spurred by what is mentioned above: "folk tradition" and "sheer number." i assume that this is you talking, MG, and not this "reputable site". right. no connection with the Black monks at all, as far as i know, though there may have been a BV at some Benedictine houses, here or there (what kind of institution was Rocamadour?). From Denis Martin (i believe --sorry if not) : >If the simple explanation for the phenomenon is the blackening of wood over the centuries a simple explanation, but, alas, not at all a credible one, after a moment's thought. > then there might be a statistical correlation with Benedictines simply because they established themselves early on and at a time when wood was preferred to other materials?? we can't really say which materials were "preferred" "early on", since, with very, very few exceptions, only the most durable (stone) has survived, providing us with a vastly skewed statistical sample of what may have originally existed. if, by "early on" you mean, say, the Merovingian period, keep in mind that, as far as we can tell from the survivors, figural sculpture in stone (like figural imagery in general) went into a very steep decline. there is just enough in the way of survivals in stucco, however, to allow us to think that this medium was much more widespread than we might otherwise think --but, again, virtually all of those surviving bits are non-figural in subject matter (architectural decoration and the like). >(Simply because it was available at an early stage of establishing a monastic outpost; ? wood was "available" --and much more plentiful than at present-- throughout the early & high m.a. >if a miracle occurred, then the wooden Madonna was retained rather than being replaced with stone or bronze or precious metal later?? certainly cult statues --whether associated with "miracles" or not-- were in continuous use over centuries; when they had to be replaced (because of, say, destruction by fire) most frequently it was by a "copy" which was "faithful" to the original. which means, virtually always, that the copy retained the *iconographic* attributes of the original but not the *stylistic* forms, the latter being very time and culture specific. > This pattern (early outpost of Benedictines in a wilderness setting) *IS* that the "pattern" of Benedictine settlement "early on" ? if so, certainly not the only one : as far as i know, every major _civitas_ in Gallo-Roman Gaul had its Benedictine house just outside its walls. i'll add some bibliographic material in my next post. best from here, christopher "What about the older ones [Indians] ?" "Well, we can't seem to cure them of the idea that our Everyday Life is only an Illusion, behind which is the Reality of Dreams" --Werner Herzog's "Fitzcarraldo" http://us.imdb.com/Title?0083946 ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html