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Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:43:41 -0400
From: Patricia Kiernan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [M-R] Holy Blood
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Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:42:42 -0500
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From: John Dillon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Plague
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Dear Myra,
If you're interested in immediate as well as in subsequent influence,
you might have a look at Rosemary Horrox, tr. and ed., _The Black Death_
(Manchester: Manchester University Press, 1994), pp. 35-41. This
slightly abbreviated translation of Michael of Piazza's account
(_Cronaca_, I, 27-29) of the plague's arrival at Messina and its
subsequent effects there and elsewhere in Sicily is one of our best
testimonies for a rapid high mortality among the lesser clergy, a
phenomenon that certainly influenced for the worse the Church's ability
to deliver pastoral services. Michael's account has a nice Black Dog
story as well.
Best,
John Dillon
PS: You may find Michael's references to the bishop of Catania as "the
Patriarch" a bit confusing. The incumbent in question happens to have
also been the (Latin) patriarch of Antioch.
On Sunday, April 24, 2005, at 1:18 pm, Myra Struckmeyer wrote:
> Dear list members,
>
> I am preparing a lecture on religion in the 14th century, a bit
> after my usual
> time of study, and I wondered how much influence "The Plague" had.
> Is there
> any consensus? What do you tell your students? Any comment will be
> appreciated!
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Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 16:58:18 -0400
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Also Miri Rubin's Gentile Tales (Yale UPr, 1999).
Tom Izbicki
Thomas Izbicki
Collection Development Coordinator
Eisenhower Library
Johns Hopkins
Baltimore, MD 21218
(410)516-7173
fax (410)516-8399
>>> [log in to unmask] 04/24/05 4:27 PM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
culture
Caroline Bynum's article "Bleeding Hosts and their Contact Relics in
Late Medieval Northern Germany" in
The Medieval History Journal, Vol. 7, No. 2, 227-241 (2004) is available
on-line at:
http://mhj.sagepub.com/cgi/content/refs/7/2/227
Best,
John
-------------------------------------------------
John Shinners
Professor of Humanistic Studies
Saint Mary's College
Notre Dame, IN 46556
Office: (574) 284-4494
Fax: (574) 284-4716
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Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:02:59 -0400
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
There is a new article on the miracle at Bolsena in:
Michetti, Raimondo.=20
Corp Author(s): Associazione italiana per lo studio della santit=E0, dei =
culti e dell'agiografia. ; Consiglio nazionale del notariato. ; Istituto =
storico italiano per il Medio Evo.=20
Publication: Milano : A. Giuffr=E8,
Year: 2004
Description: xviii, 690 p., [18] leaves of plates : ill. (chiefly col.) =
; 24 cm.
Language: Italian; Italian, English, and French contributions.
Series: Studi storici sul notariato italiano ;; 12;=20
Standard No: ISBN: 8814109168
SUBJECT(S)=09
Descriptor: Notaries (Canon law) -- Congresses.=20
Notaries -- Italy -- History -- Congresses.=20
Canonization -- History -- To 1500 -- Congresses.=20
Note(s): Proceedings./ At head of title: Associazione italiana per =
lo studio della santit=E0, dei culti, e dell'agiograria, Consiglio =
nazionale del notariato, Istituto storico italiano per il Medioevo./ =
Includes bibliographical references and indexes.
Tom Izbicki
Thomas Izbicki
Collection Development Coordinator
Eisenhower Library
Johns Hopkins
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(410)516-7173
fax (410)516-8399
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Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:02:09 -0400
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From: Charles Giguere <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Pope Joan
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
O Learned Ones:
Today's newspaper (the Montreal Gazette) carries the remark that =
"writers who declare the legend [of Pope Joan] to be utterly without =
foundation have tended to be utterly Catholic in their outlook". Does =
anyone know what the current opinion of historians is about the basis =
of the story?=20
Bernadette Filotas
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>O Learned Ones:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Today's newspaper (the Montreal=20
Gazette) carries the remark that "writers who declare the =
legend [of=20
Pope Joan] to be utterly without foundation have tended to be utterly =
Catholic=20
in their outlook". Does anyone know what the current opinion of =
historians is=20
about the basis of the story? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bernadette =
Filotas</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:20:35 -0400
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From: jen funk segrest <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope Joan
In-Reply-To: <005d01c54910$e164a120$ef13fea9@ece>
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
On Apr 24, 2005, at 5:02 PM, Charles Giguere wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and=20
> culture
> O Learned Ones:
> =A0
> Today's newspaper (the Montreal Gazette)=A0carries the=A0remark that=20=
> "writers who declare the legend [of Pope Joan] to be utterly without=20=
> foundation have tended to be utterly Catholic in their outlook". Does=20=
> anyone know what the current opinion of historians is about the=A0 =
basis=20
> of the story?
>
I find this site helpful for catholic topics...
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08407a.htm
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Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:24:45 -0700
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From: Phyllis Jestice <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: saints of the day 25. April
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Today (25. April) is the feast day of:
Mark (d. c. 74) The evangelist. Mark makes a cameo appearance in
the gospel attributed to him: he may have been the young man caught
by the soldiers after Jesus' arrest, who broke loose, leaving his
clothes behind him (Mark 14:51-2). The evangelist is more securely
identified with the Mark who traveled with Paul and/or Barnabus
during the course of Acts, and who may be the same person as "my son,
Mark" mentioned in 1 Peter 5:13. Early tradition tells that M. was
first bishop of Alexandria. He is the patron saint of Venice, thanks
to the dramatic theft of his relics from Alexandria.
Anianus (1st cent.?) The apocryphal Acts of Mark tell that Anianus
was an Alexandrian shoemaker who was converted by Mark and who became
the second bishop of the city.
Heribald (d. c. 857) Heribald was a monk who became abbot of St.
Germain and later bishop of Auxerre.
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Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 23:30:02 +0100
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From: John Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: saints of the day 25. April
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Phyllis Jestice wrote:
>
> Today (25. April) is the feast day of:
>
> Mark
In the Sarum Calendar, an Inferior double feast, with three lessons at
Matins.
John Briggs
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Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:32:54 EDT
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From: Ann Ball <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Check out NOTRE-DAME DE ROCAMADOUR
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Click here: NOTRE-DAME DE ROCAMADOUR
Sometimes when I am hunting for an image, I use the images section of google
to find a website that is usually from the shrine concerned where perhaps good
information can be found.
Ciao
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<DIV><A title=3Dhttp://www.notre-dame-de-rocamadour.com/ href=3D"http://www.=
notre-dame-de-rocamadour.com/">Click here: NOTRE-DAME DE ROCAMADOUR</A> </DI=
V>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Sometimes when I am hunting for an image, I use the images section of g=
oogle to find a website that is usually from the shrine concerned where perh=
aps good information can be found.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ciao</DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 21:09:21 -0400
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From: Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope Joan
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
The most recent study;
Boureau, Alain The Myth of Pope Joan. Translated by Lydia G. Cochrane.
400 p., 5 halftones, 2 maps. 6 x 9 2001
Paper $22.50sp 0-226-06745-9 Spring 2001
In the ninth century, a brilliant young woman named Joan disguised
herself as a man so that she could follow her lover into the
then-exclusively male world of scholarship. She proved so successful
that she ascended the Catholic hierarchy in Rome and was eventually
elected pope. Her pontificate lasted two years, until she became
pregnant and died after giving birth during a public procession from the
Vatican.
Or so the legend goes--a legend that was fabricated sometime in the
thirteenth century, according to Alain Boureau, and which has persisted
in one form or another down to the present day. In this fascinating saga
of belief and rhetoric, politics and religion, Boureau investigates the
historical and ecclesiastical circumstances under which the myth of Pope
Joan was constructed and the different uses to which it was put over the
centuries. He shows, for instance, how Catholic clerics justified the
exclusion of women from the papacy and the priesthood by employing the
myth in misogynist moral tales, only to find the popess they had created
turned against them in anti-Catholic propaganda during the Reformation.
TABLE OF CONTENTS
Boureau/Myth
Contents
Part I The Sex of the Popes: A Roman Story
1 The Pontificals
2 The History of a Chair
3 The Popes between Two Stools
Part II Joan Militant
4 Joan the Catholic: Thirteenth-Fifteenth Centuries
5 The Popess and Her Sisters
Part III Death and Transfiguration of the Popess
6 Joan at the Stake: Fifteenth-Seventeenth Centuries
7 The Popess in Litearture
Epilogues
8 First Epilogue: Historiography of the Popess
9 Second Epilogue: Joan's Body
Subjects:
CULTURE STUDIES
GENDER AND SEXUALITY
HISTORY: European History
MEDIEVAL STUDIES
RELIGION
RELIGION: Christianity
WOMEN'S STUDIES
You may purchase this title at these fine bookstores. Outside the USA,
consult our international information page.
File last modified on 04/17/2005.
Questions about this title? email [log in to unmask]
Tom Izbicki
Thomas Izbicki
Collection Development Coordinator
Eisenhower Library
Johns Hopkins
Baltimore, MD 21218
(410)516-7173
fax (410)516-8399
>>> [log in to unmask] 04/24/05 5:02 PM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
culture
O Learned Ones:
Today's newspaper (the Montreal Gazette) carries the remark that
"writers who declare the legend [of Pope Joan] to be utterly without
foundation have tended to be utterly Catholic in their outlook". Does
anyone know what the current opinion of historians is about the basis
of the story?
Bernadette Filotas
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Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:41:05 -0400
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From: "Manu Radhakrishnan ([log in to unmask])" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: marian liturgies in Sta Maria in Trastevere in Rome around 1300
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Eruditi/ae,
Can anyone point me to works that would give me an idea of the liturgy--both daily and for the great Marian feasts--in this church around 1300. I am working on the Cavallini narrative mosaic cycle and wondering if I can connect the liturgy to the inscriptions under the mosaics, which were composed by Cardinal Jacopo Stefaneschi, the donor's brother.
Thanks,
Manu Radhakrishnan
PhD student, Medieval European History
Princeton University
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:57:37 +0800
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From: Jia Jun <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Holy Blood
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
In relation to the question of Christ's blood and body, I would like to
point you out to a 8th century phenomenon known commonly as the Eucharistic
Miracle of Lanciano. See http://www.cmns.mnegri.it/miracolo/shortdesc.html
for an introduction online to the background of the miracle, prior even to
the official Roman Catholic recognition of the doctrine of
transubstantiation. The transformed bread and wine have been associated with
the tissue from human heart, and indirectly affirms another doctrine which
arises later, namely the doctrine of the Immaculate(and pierced) Heart of
Christ and of Mary with its religious-semi-erotic associations.
I also point out a related thread on the Orthodox forum about this miracle
and also other historical antecedents on the miracles of Christ's Body(in
both the Eucharistic sense and the physical-corporeal sense of his relics)
which deals with it from a patristic understanding at
http://www.monachos.net/mb/messages/4228/19069.html?1112173273http://www.monachos.net/mb/messages/4228/19069.html?1112173273
If you are more concerned with the relics(secondary relics, that is, those
material objects which Jesus used or which were used on Jesus)of Christ and
their history, I would also point you out to one website,
http://www.catholictreasures.com/articles/oninstrm.html. There are a lot of
Catholic websites about the Passion of Christ and the instruments used in
His torture and death by crucifixion. I figured out that your main concern
is with the primary relics(basically the remnants of Christ's pierced and
scourged body prior to the Resurrection, such as His blood and so on). I
will look into this and reply some more if I find any additional
information, but here is another article on the secondary relics associated
with Christ, especially the Mandylion of Edessa, which was brought to
Constantinople in 944 AD.
Hope this helps.
Kevin Jang
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:18:24 +0800
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Jia Jun <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Holy Blood
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Meg,
You might also want to look into the Croxton Play of the Sacrament, if =
you are interested in bleeding hosts and medieval dramatic narratives =
about them. The Croxton Play has one segment in which "here the host =
must blede"(sorry for not being able to reproduce the exact quote) and =
the "priest"-figure within the play--the actor-- must fulfill a =
sacerdotal role akin to the Catholic priest in transforming the =
Eucharist elements into flesh and blood. The wafer is seen to be part of =
this dramatic device and also a "proof" or sign of the Eucharist which =
bleeds in order to prove to the "Jews"-prototype within the plot the =
authenticity of the Eucharistic miracle in Christianity, and hence =
procure their conversion within the plot. This actually leads to one =
interesting debate about the relations between mimesis and liturgical =
reality, since the Host within the play--the dramatic device--must bleed =
in order to procure the Jews' conversion, but this is another question =
altogether.=20
Also, see Miri Rubin's Corpus Christi for a history on the phenomenon of =
the bleeding Host within the medieval period.
Kevin Jang
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Patricia Kiernan=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 3:43 AM
Subject: Re: [M-R] Holy Blood
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and =
culture=20
The Miracle at Bolsena immediately comes to mind, of course (Eucharist =
spouted Christ's blood, mid-13th c); reliquary is in Orvieto Cathedral. =
The miracle itself took place at S Cristina in Bolsena. If you look up =
"Orvieto" in the Catholic Encyclopedia, there are a couple of paragraphs =
on the subject. Here's a recent essay on the reliquary:
Author: Freni, Giovanni.=20
Title: "The reliquary of the Holy Corporal in the cathedral of Orvieto =
: patronage and politics."
In: Art, politics, and civic religion in Central Italy, 1261-1352 : =
essays by postgraduate students at the Courtauld Institute of Art. =
Aldershot, Brookfield, Ashgate, 2000, p. 117-177.=20
Summary: Cites documentary evidence and financial records for the =
commission and execution of the reliquary by Ugolino di Vieri and his =
workshop, finished in 1338. Tramo Mondaleschi della Cervara, bishop of =
the city of Orvieto, through the Opera del Duomo, commissioned the new =
and magnificent reliquary for the relics of the "miracle of Bolsena". =
The leading role played by the powerful Monaldeschi family in this =
commission is supported by Tramo's inscription on the base of the =
reliquary and further confimed by the presence of coats of arms, =
together with those of the pope, in a central position between the =
shields with the emblems of the city. The importance of the feast of =
Corpus Christi at this time, and of the cult of the relics of the =
miracle of Bolsena, prompted the commission. The narrative cycles of the =
reliquary were designed to provide a visual exposition of the doctrine =
of the Corpus Christi through the exemplum of the "Miracle of Bolsena" =
and the narrative of significant episodes of the Gospels. Religious and =
civic spheres were inextricably interlocked in the plans for the =
promotion and display of Orvieto's precious relic.
-Patricia
----Original Message Follows----=20
From: "Cormack, Margaret Jean" <[log in to unmask]>=20
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval =
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:58:30 +0200
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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From: "Goris, Dr. H.J.M.J." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Holy Blood
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
in addition: there is an other wonderful article by Caroline Walker =
Bynum:
'The Blood of Christ in the Later Middle Ages', Church History: Studies =
in Christianity & Culture. Vol. 71 No. 4, December 2002
For an abstract: =
http://www.churchhistory.org/journal/abstracts/200204_Bynum.htm
Best,
Harm
Harm Goris=20
Lecturer in systematic theology=20
Katholieke Theologische Universiteit=20
Utrecht, The Netherlands=20
tel: +31-30-253 3129=20
fax: +31-30-253 3665=20
Visit the site of the Thomas Institute Utrecht =
:http://www.thomasinstituut.org/ The best Aquinas site on the Web!=20
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]]Namens
[log in to unmask]
Verzonden: zondag 24 april 2005 22:28
Aan: [log in to unmask]
Onderwerp: Re: [M-R] Holy Blood
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and =
culture
Caroline Bynum's article "Bleeding Hosts and their Contact Relics in =
Late Medieval Northern Germany" in
The Medieval History Journal, Vol. 7, No. 2, 227-241 (2004) is available =
on-line at:
http://mhj.sagepub.com/cgi/content/refs/7/2/227
Best,
John
-------------------------------------------------
John Shinners
Professor of Humanistic Studies
Saint Mary's College
Notre Dame, IN 46556
Office: (574) 284-4494
Fax: (574) 284-4716
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 06:48:02 -0400
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Cormack, Margaret Jean" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Holy Blood
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
=20
Thanks!
By the way, do you still have the copies of your booklet on names
(I think it was nicknames)? If so, could you mail me one (clearly=20
marked as "gift" though I=B4ll be happy to pay!) at
=20
Margaret Cormack
c/o Matthias Eggertsson
Hagamel 37
107 Reykjavik
Iceland
=20
I=B4ll be in Nottingham in about two weeks but may not make it to =
Leicester.
Meg
=20
________________________________
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious =
culture on behalf of Postles, Dr D.A.
Sent: sun. 24.4.2005 12:29
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] Holy Blood
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and =
culture
No doubt you already know of:
Nicholas Vincent, The Holy Blood: King Henry III and the Westminster =
Blood Relic (Cambridge, 2001).
D.
________________________________
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious =
culture on behalf of Cormack, Margaret Jean
Sent: Sun 24/04/2005 17:07
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] Holy Blood
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and =
culture
Dear List Members,
I=B4m trying to find records, stories, references to relics of =
Christ's Blood in the Middle
Ages (or later.) I=B4m especially interested in church dedications and =
the liturgy. Any bibliography
will be greatly appreciated!
Meg
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:27:36 -0400
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sean Field <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope Joan
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Boureau's book is definitely the place to go. For a shorter but serious
and sober evaluation see the text of "The Female Pope" by Rosemary and
Darroll Pardoe, on line at
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~pardos/PopeJoanHome.html.
Sean Field
At 09:09 PM 4/24/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultu
>
>The most recent study;
>
>Boureau, Alain The Myth of Pope Joan. Translated by Lydia G. Cochrane.
>400 p., 5 halftones, 2 maps. 6 x 9 2001
>
>Paper $22.50sp 0-226-06745-9 Spring 2001
>
>In the ninth century, a brilliant young woman named Joan disguised
>herself as a man so that she could follow her lover into the
>then-exclusively male world of scholarship. She proved so successful
>that she ascended the Catholic hierarchy in Rome and was eventually
>elected pope. Her pontificate lasted two years, until she became
>pregnant and died after giving birth during a public procession from the
>Vatican.
>
>Or so the legend goes--a legend that was fabricated sometime in the
>thirteenth century, according to Alain Boureau, and which has persisted
>in one form or another down to the present day. In this fascinating saga
>of belief and rhetoric, politics and religion, Boureau investigates the
>historical and ecclesiastical circumstances under which the myth of Pope
>Joan was constructed and the different uses to which it was put over the
>centuries. He shows, for instance, how Catholic clerics justified the
>exclusion of women from the papacy and the priesthood by employing the
>myth in misogynist moral tales, only to find the popess they had created
>turned against them in anti-Catholic propaganda during the Reformation.
>TABLE OF CONTENTS
>
>Boureau/Myth
>
>Contents
>Part I The Sex of the Popes: A Roman Story
>1 The Pontificals
>2 The History of a Chair
>3 The Popes between Two Stools
>
>Part II Joan Militant
>4 Joan the Catholic: Thirteenth-Fifteenth Centuries
>5 The Popess and Her Sisters
>
>Part III Death and Transfiguration of the Popess
>6 Joan at the Stake: Fifteenth-Seventeenth Centuries
>7 The Popess in Litearture
>
>Epilogues
>8 First Epilogue: Historiography of the Popess
>9 Second Epilogue: Joan's Body
>
>Subjects:
>
>CULTURE STUDIES
>GENDER AND SEXUALITY
>HISTORY: European History
>MEDIEVAL STUDIES
>RELIGION
>RELIGION: Christianity
>WOMEN'S STUDIES
>You may purchase this title at these fine bookstores. Outside the USA,
>consult our international information page.
>
>File last modified on 04/17/2005.
>
> Questions about this title? email [log in to unmask]
>
>Tom Izbicki
>
>Thomas Izbicki
>Collection Development Coordinator
>Eisenhower Library
>Johns Hopkins
>Baltimore, MD 21218
>(410)516-7173
>fax (410)516-8399
> >>> [log in to unmask] 04/24/05 5:02 PM >>>
>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>culture
>
>O Learned Ones:
>
>Today's newspaper (the Montreal Gazette) carries the remark that
>"writers who declare the legend [of Pope Joan] to be utterly without
>foundation have tended to be utterly Catholic in their outlook". Does
>anyone know what the current opinion of historians is about the basis
>of the story?
>
>Bernadette Filotas
>
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>
>**********************************************************************
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Sean Field
Assistant Professor
University of Vermont
Department of History
Wheeler House
133 S. Prospect
Burlington, VT 05405
802-656-4408
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:53:16 -0500
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
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Subject: Re: Pope Joan
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Boureau is certainly not utterly Catholic. What's the rest of the context =
for the outlandish claim in the Montreal Gazette? Who wrote the piece? =
What's his or her particular location on the religious or ideological =
spectrum?
Dennis Martin
>>> [log in to unmask] 4/24/2005 4:02 PM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
O Learned Ones:
Today's newspaper (the Montreal Gazette) carries the remark that "writers =
who declare the legend [of Pope Joan] to be utterly without foundation =
have tended to be utterly Catholic in their outlook". Does anyone know =
what the current opinion of historians is about the basis of the =
story?=20
Bernadette Filotas
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:37:55 -0400
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sharon Dale <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Italians and Italianists Kalamazoo 2005
Comments: To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask], David Wilkins <[log in to unmask]>,
"Caferro, William P" <[log in to unmask]>,
Cathy Ann Elias <[log in to unmask]>, Ben Kohl <[log in to unmask]>,
"F. Thomas Luongo" <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask], Thomas Madden <[log in to unmask]>,
Sherry Reames <[log in to unmask]>,
Ernesto Virgulti <[log in to unmask]>,
"Dr. George Dameron" <[log in to unmask]>,
Daniel Bornstein <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], "John E. Dotson"
<[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask], "Duane J. Osheim" <[log in to unmask]>,
[log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Dear Italianists, As you prepare for this year's conference, remember to =
add the annual Italians and Italianists' (short on) business meeting =
and (long on) reception to your list. This year's festa will be on =
Saturday, 7 May at 5:30 in Bernhard 158. ALWAYS a fun party and great =
for connecting with Italianists working on anything between the =
Etruscans to the Risorgimento. As in the past, graduate students in =
Italian studies are welcome at no cost. Other members can contribute a =
few dollars to defray the cost of the reception to Sharon at the =
reception itself. Hoping to see you all there.=20
Best,=20
Sharon Dale
Leslie Zarker Morgan
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2627" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080>Dear Italianists, As you prepare for this =
year's=20
conference, remember to add the annual Italians and Italianists' (short =
on)=20
business meeting and (long on) reception to your list. This year's =
festa=20
will be on Saturday, 7 May at 5:30 in Bernhard 158. ALWAYS a fun party =
and great=20
for connecting with Italianists working on anything=20
between the Etruscans to the Risorgimento. As in the past, graduate =
students in Italian studies are welcome at no cost. Other members can =
contribute=20
a few dollars to defray the cost of the reception to Sharon at the =
reception=20
itself. Hoping to see you all there. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080>Best, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080>Sharon Dale</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080>Leslie Zarker Morgan</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:51:42 -0400
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Cecil T Ault <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Italians and Italianists Kalamazoo 2005
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Thanks, Sharon. I'm in India and won't be back till the Middle of
May. Sorry to miss the conference. Yrs, tom ault
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:37:55 -0400
Sharon Dale <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>culture
>
> Dear Italianists, As you prepare for this year's conference,
>remember to add the annual Italians and Italianists' (short on)
>business meeting and (long on) reception to your list. This year's
>festa will be on Saturday, 7 May at 5:30 in Bernhard 158. ALWAYS a
>fun party and great for connecting with Italianists working on
>anything between the Etruscans to the Risorgimento. As in the past,
>graduate students in Italian studies are welcome at no cost. Other
>members can contribute a few dollars to defray the cost of the
>reception to Sharon at the reception itself. Hoping to see you all
>there.
> Best,
> Sharon Dale
> Leslie Zarker Morgan
>
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:24:29 -0500
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Christopher Crockett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Check out NOTRE-DAME DE ROCAMADOUR
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From: Ann Ball <[log in to unmask]>
> Click here: http://www.notre-dame-de-rocamadour.com/
the image in the center here is a pastiche, made up of a photo of the
surviving cult statue placed within a modern frame which is based on the =
form
of the surviving pilgrims' badges from Rocamadour.
these are all very unusual (unique?), in their form, which closely resemb=
les
that of contemporary (late 12th-13th c.) seals.
here are a few, from the massive collection of badges now in the Cluny mu=
seum
in Paris:
http://www.christophersbookroom.com/cc/badges/cluny/cluny_rocamadour/clun=
y_100.jpg
http://www.christophersbookroom.com/cc/badges/cluny/cluny_rocamadour/clun=
y_101.jpg
http://www.christophersbookroom.com/cc/badges/cluny/cluny_rocamadour/clun=
y_102.jpg
http://www.christophersbookroom.com/cc/badges/cluny/cluny_rocamadour/clun=
y_103.jpg
with the descriptions of them, from the catalogue of the seal collection:=
=
http://www.christophersbookroom.com/cc/badges/cluny/cluny_rocamadour/clun=
y_rocamadour.html
and some from the collection in London:
http://www.christophersbookroom.com/cc/badges/spencer/spencer_rocamadour/=
spencer245.jpg
http://www.christophersbookroom.com/cc/badges/spencer/spencer_rocamadour/=
spencer245a.jpg
http://www.christophersbookroom.com/cc/badges/spencer/spencer_rocamadour/=
spencer245c.jpg
http://www.christophersbookroom.com/cc/badges/spencer/spencer_rocamadour/=
spencer245e.jpg
with a good, short, "reliable" text on the Rocamadour pilgrimage by the l=
ate
English Dean of Pilgrims' souvenirs, Brian Spencer:
http://www.christophersbookroom.com/cc/badges/spencer/spencer_rocamadour/=
rocamadour.rtf
as far as i can see, that picture of the V&C on the "Site Officiel" home =
page
is the only one on the site.
=
why am i not surprised?
otOh, no pilgrimage site is complete without a souvenir stall (one is
documented in Chartres from the early 12th c.).
here's Rocamadour's:
http://www.notre-dame-de-rocamadour.com/5-1.html
"pilgrimage" is very good for business
http://www.notre-dame-de-rocamadour.com/photos/3-1.jpg
and always has been.
c
"What about the older ones [Indians] ?"
"Well, we can't seem to cure them of the idea that our Everyday Life is o=
nly
an Illusion, behind which is the Reality of Dreams" =
--Werner Herzog's "Fitzcarraldo"
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0083946
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:32:08 -0400
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: marian liturgies in Sta Maria in Trastevere in Rome around
1300
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Have you tried:
Rome 1300 : on the path of the pilgrim / Herbert L. Kessler, Johanna
Zacharias.
Author:
Kessler, Herbert L., 1941-
Subjects:
Art, Italian -- Italy -- Rome.
Christian art and symbolism -- To 500 -- Italy -- Rome.
Christian art and symbolism -- Medieval, 500-1500 -- Italy -- Rome.
Christian pilgrims and pilgrimages -- Italy -- Rome -- Fiction.
Holy Year, 1300.
Rome (Italy) -- Church history.
Rome (Italy) -- Description and travel
Rome (Italy) -- Buildings, structures, etc.
Publisher:
New Haven [Conn.] : Yale University Press, c2000?
Tom Izbicki
Thomas Izbicki
Collection Development Coordinator
Eisenhower Library
Johns Hopkins
Baltimore, MD 21218
(410)516-7173
fax (410)516-8399
>>> [log in to unmask] 04/24/05 10:41 PM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
culture
Eruditi/ae,
Can anyone point me to works that would give me an idea of the
liturgy--both daily and for the great Marian feasts--in this church
around 1300. I am working on the Cavallini narrative mosaic cycle and
wondering if I can connect the liturgy to the inscriptions under the
mosaics, which were composed by Cardinal Jacopo Stefaneschi, the donor's
brother.
Thanks,
Manu Radhakrishnan
PhD student, Medieval European History
Princeton University
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:36:44 -0400
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Charles Giguere <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pope Joan
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Besides being, as a newspaper columnist, an ex officio Fountain of All
Knowledge, the writer in question is the paper's music critic who also runs
the weekly quiz, which this week was on the papacy. But his statements do
tend to be taken seriously - i.e., quoted - by some people, and if wrong,
should be refuted. Since I am compromised in his eyes by a) being Catholic
and b) having assumed that the Pope Joan canard had long been a dead duck, I
am very grateful to Tom Izbicki and Sean Field for providing me with titles
of works of reliable scholarship. I'll pass them on to him. Many thanks.
BF
Boureau is certainly not utterly Catholic. What's the rest of the context
for the outlandish claim in the Montreal Gazette? Who wrote the piece?
What's his or her particular location on the religious or ideological
spectrum?
Dennis Martin
>>> [log in to unmask] 4/24/2005 4:02 PM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
O Learned Ones:
Today's newspaper (the Montreal Gazette) carries the remark that "writers
who declare the legend [of Pope Joan] to be utterly without foundation have
tended to be utterly Catholic in their outlook". Does anyone know what the
current opinion of historians is about the basis of the story?
Bernadette Filotas
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:45:51 -0400
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From: "Cormack, Margaret Jean" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Holy Blood, again
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Thanks to all who have sent references, which I will follow up.
I=B4m intrigued that so much of the Holy Blood derives from bleeding
hosts. I shouldn=B4t be surprised by this, especially in the later =
Middle
Ages, but was expecting to find relics that might have emerged from
the East during the crusades, i.e. that claimed to be blood from
the Crucifixion itself.
Meg
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:02:49 -0400
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Holy Blood, again
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I tend to regard bleeding hosts as ratifying transsubstantiation in the =
late medieval millieu.
Tom Izbicki
Thomas Izbicki
Collection Development Coordinator
Eisenhower Library
Johns Hopkins
Baltimore, MD 21218
(410)516-7173
fax (410)516-8399
>>> [log in to unmask] 04/25/05 11:45 AM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Thanks to all who have sent references, which I will follow up.
I=B4m intrigued that so much of the Holy Blood derives from bleeding
hosts. I shouldn=B4t be surprised by this, especially in the later Middle
Ages, but was expecting to find relics that might have emerged from
the East during the crusades, i.e. that claimed to be blood from
the Crucifixion itself.
Meg
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:37:52 -0400
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Plague
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
There are legal works concerning the plague. Most significantly, there
is a work of Rodrigo Sanchez de Arevalo, An sine peccato fideles licita
fugiant a locis ubi saevit pestis.
Much of the literature is cited in my article "A tract on the plague
falsely attributed to Juan de Mella." it was written for a Spanish
festschrift & is easiest to find in my collection:
Friars and Jurists (Keip Verlag, 1997), pp. 303*-308*.
Tom Izbicki
Thomas Izbicki
Collection Development Coordinator
Eisenhower Library
Johns Hopkins
Baltimore, MD 21218
(410)516-7173
fax (410)516-8399
>>> [log in to unmask] 04/24/05 2:18 PM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
culture
Dear list members,
I am preparing a lecture on religion in the 14th century, a bit after
my usual
time of study, and I wondered how much influence "The Plague" had. Is
there
any consensus? What do you tell your students? Any comment will be
appreciated!
Thanks,
Myra,
Myra Struckmeyer
PhD candidate
UNC Chapel Hill
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:49:36 -0400
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Recent titles
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
French:
J. Verdon, Le Moyen Age: ombres et lumieres (Paris: Perrin, 2005).
R. Berger & A. Brasseur, Les sequences de Sainte Eulalie (Geneva: Droz,
2004).
P. Betrand, Commerce avec Dame Pauvrete: structure et functions des
couvents
endiants a Liege (XIII et XIV siecles) (Geneva: Droz, 2004).
C. Denoel, Saint Andre, Culte & iconographie en France (V-XV siecle)
(Geneva: Droz, 2004).
I. Fabre, La doctrine du chant du couer de Jean Gerson (Geneva: Droz,
2005).
Un frament de la Genese en vers (fin XIII-debut XIV siecle) (Geneva:
Droz, 2005.
J. Wirth, Datation de la sculpture medievale (Geneva: Droz, 2004).
J-P. Leguay, Les catastrophes au Moyen Age (Paris: Editions du
Jean-Paul Gisserot, 2005).
La croisade albigeoise, ed. M. Roquebert (Carcassone: CNEC, 2004).
C. Badilita, Metamorphoses de l'Antichrist chez les Peres de l'Eglise
(Paris: Beauchesbe, 2005).
Cluny, ed. J. Roux (Vic-en-Bigorre: MSM editions, 2004).
M. Viallon, Italie 1451 ou L'unite perdue de l'Eglise (Paris: CNRS,
2005).
Identites pelerines, ed. C. Vincent (Rouen: Presses universitaires de
Rouen, 2004).
J-M. Fabre, La saintete canonisee: principes et conditions essentiales
d'une procedure particulaire (Paris: Pierre Taqui, 2003).
J-C. Colbus, La Chronique de Sebastien Francj (Berne: Peter Lang,
2005).
H-M. Vicaire, Histoire de Saint Dominique (Paris: Cerf, 2004).
J-R. Marechal, Les saints qui guerissent en Auvergne (Rennes: Editions
Ouest-France, 2004).
English:
Crusading in the fifteenth century, ed. N. housley (Palgrave, 2004).
R.W. Dyson, Normative theories of society and government in five
medieval thinkers: St. Augusti9ne, John of Salisbury, Giles of Rome, St.
Thomas aquinas and Marsilius of Padua (Lewiston: Edwin Mellen, 2003).
B. Roggrma et al., The three rings: textual studies in the historical
trialogue of Judaism, Christianity and Isalam (Leuven: Peeters, 2005).
Essays in medieval philosophy in memory of Walter H. Principe CSB, ed.
J.R. Ginther & C.N. Still (Ashgate, 2005).
J.J. O'Donnell (Augustine: a new biography (Ecco Press, 2005).
S. Knuuttila, Emotions in ancient and medieval philosophy (Clarendon
Pr, 2004).
L.M. Harrington, Sacred place in early medieval Neoplatonism (Palgrave
Macmillan, 2004).
L.S. Cunningham, A brief history of saints (Blackwell, 2005).
J. Perez, Spanish Inquisition (Profile Books, 2004). [tr. from french]
T. Asbridge, The First Crusade: a new history (Oxford UPr, 2004).
L. Carlsson, Round trips to heaven: otherworldly travellers in early
Judaism & Christianity (Lund University: Departent of History and
Anthropology, 2004).
German:
U. Spyra, Das "Buch der Natur" Konrads von Megenburg: die
iIllustrierten Handschriften und Inkunabeln (Koln: Bohlau, 2005).
A. Imhof, Religioser Wander und die Genese des Islams (Wurburg: ergon,
2004).
D. Escher, Von Altar bis Ziborium: St. Remigius Wittlaer (Dusseldorf:
Heimat- und Kulturkreis, 2004).
S. Frauenknecht, Kloster Gnadenberg (Lauf: Altnurnberger Landschaft,
2004).
K. Hausberger, Das Bistums Regensburg (Regensburg: Pustet, 2004).
D. Muller, "Ketzerinnen": Frauen gegen ihren eigen Weg: vom Leben und
Sterben der Katharerinnen im 13. und 14. Jahrhundert (Wurzburg: Religion
& Kultur, 2004).
B. Studt, Papst Martin V (1417-1431) und die Kirchenreform in
Deutschland (Koln: Bohlau, 2004).
Tom Izbicki
Thomas Izbicki
Collection Development Coordinator
Eisenhower Library
Johns Hopkins
Baltimore, MD 21218
(410)516-7173
fax (410)516-8399
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:51:04 -0400
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Typo in Recent Titles
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Title by Viallon - itle is: Italie 1541, not 1451.
Tom Izbicki
Thomas Izbicki
Collection Development Coordinator
Eisenhower Library
Johns Hopkins
Baltimore, MD 21218
(410)516-7173
fax (410)516-8399
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:49:02 -0700
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Gary Macy <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Holy Blood, again
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I hope I am not being too much of pedant here, but I would suggest that=20=
bleeding hosts were meant to support a belief in the real presence, not=20=
in transubstantiation. I realize that Tom Izbicki is more than aware=20
of the distinction between real presence and transubstantiation and=20
that he was using transubstantiation as a short hand for real presence=20=
as most people do. I thought, however that some clarification would be=20=
helpful for those interested in the theological opinion of the time on=20=
miracle hosts.
The distinction between real presence and transubstantiation =
would be=20
that a belief in the real presence asserts that somehow the risen=20
Christ is present in the eucharistic celebration and specifically in=20
the bread and wine consecrated in that context. Transubstantiation is=20=
a term that covers a variety of possible explanations of how that might=20=
be possible. I would want to stress the difference for a couple of=20
reasons. First, transubstantiation was a techinical concept understood=20=
by theologians and used probably only by them. Ordinary folk may have=20=
heard the word, but if they did (and that's doubtful), they didn't=20
understand it except that in so far as it meant a belief in the real=20
presence. This is important since theologians after about 1225 were=20
very suspicious of miracle hosts and even when they did accept the=20
possibility, they insisted that any flesh and blood produced by a=20
miracle could not be the flesh and blood of Christ. Transubstantiation=20=
in fact makes this impossible since substance, not accidents (sense=20
data roughly) are what change here. Thomas Aquinas has a good=20
discussion of all this. Secondly, theologians including Thomas Aquinas=20=
would have held that a belief in the actual physical (that is sensed)=20
presence of the body and blood of Christ would be a heresy=20
(Capharnaism). So, for many theologians in the thirteenth and=20
fourteenth century (actually all that I have read, but I don't claim=20
to have read them all), any suggestion that the sensed, physical body=20
and blood of Christ is present in a miracle would be suspect at best=20
and heresy at worst. The presence they would accept and describe by=20
the term "transubstantiation" would be a substantial presence which=20
could be accessed only by the mind since that is how one accesses=20
substances.
On Apr 25, 2005, at 9:02 AM, Thomas Izbicki wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and=20
> culture
>
> I tend to regard bleeding hosts as ratifying transsubstantiation in=20
> the late medieval millieu.
>
> Tom Izbicki
>
> Thomas Izbicki
> Collection Development Coordinator
> Eisenhower Library
> Johns Hopkins
> Baltimore, MD 21218
> (410)516-7173
> fax (410)516-8399
>
>>>> [log in to unmask] 04/25/05 11:45 AM >>>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and=20
> culture
>
> Thanks to all who have sent references, which I will follow up.
> I=B4m intrigued that so much of the Holy Blood derives from bleeding
> hosts. I shouldn=B4t be surprised by this, especially in the later =
Middle
> Ages, but was expecting to find relics that might have emerged from
> the East during the crusades, i.e. that claimed to be blood from
> the Crucifixion itself.
> Meg
>
> **********************************************************************
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>
Gary Macy, Ph.D.
Professor
Department of Theology and Religious Studies
Associate Director of the Center for the Study of Latino/a Catholicism
University of San Diego
5998 Alcal=E1 Park
San Diego, CA 92110
619-260-4053
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:54:03 -0400
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Holy Blood, again
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Gary,
I was thinking of clergy, not laity. Having read a lot of Reformation =
polemic on the Eucharist lately, that may be why I was fixated on the =
doctrine.
The laity would not (ordinarilly0 have had such a subtle understanding of =
explanations of the real presence.
Tom Izbicki
Thomas Izbicki
Collection Development Coordinator
Eisenhower Library
Johns Hopkins
Baltimore, MD 21218
(410)516-7173
fax (410)516-8399
>>> [log in to unmask] 04/25/05 2:49 PM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I hope I am not being too much of pedant here, but I would suggest that=20
bleeding hosts were meant to support a belief in the real presence, not=20
in transubstantiation. I realize that Tom Izbicki is more than aware=20
of the distinction between real presence and transubstantiation and=20
that he was using transubstantiation as a short hand for real presence=20
as most people do. I thought, however that some clarification would be=20
helpful for those interested in the theological opinion of the time on=20
miracle hosts.
The distinction between real presence and transubstantiation would =
be=20
that a belief in the real presence asserts that somehow the risen=20
Christ is present in the eucharistic celebration and specifically in=20
the bread and wine consecrated in that context. Transubstantiation is=20
a term that covers a variety of possible explanations of how that might=20
be possible. I would want to stress the difference for a couple of=20
reasons. First, transubstantiation was a techinical concept understood=20
by theologians and used probably only by them. Ordinary folk may have=20
heard the word, but if they did (and that's doubtful), they didn't=20
understand it except that in so far as it meant a belief in the real=20
presence. This is important since theologians after about 1225 were=20
very suspicious of miracle hosts and even when they did accept the=20
possibility, they insisted that any flesh and blood produced by a=20
miracle could not be the flesh and blood of Christ. Transubstantiation=20
in fact makes this impossible since substance, not accidents (sense=20
data roughly) are what change here. Thomas Aquinas has a good=20
discussion of all this. Secondly, theologians including Thomas Aquinas=20
would have held that a belief in the actual physical (that is sensed)=20
presence of the body and blood of Christ would be a heresy=20
(Capharnaism). So, for many theologians in the thirteenth and=20
fourteenth century (actually all that I have read, but I don't claim=20
to have read them all), any suggestion that the sensed, physical body=20
and blood of Christ is present in a miracle would be suspect at best=20
and heresy at worst. The presence they would accept and describe by=20
the term "transubstantiation" would be a substantial presence which=20
could be accessed only by the mind since that is how one accesses=20
substances.
On Apr 25, 2005, at 9:02 AM, Thomas Izbicki wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and=20
> culture
>
> I tend to regard bleeding hosts as ratifying transsubstantiation in=20
> the late medieval millieu.
>
> Tom Izbicki
>
> Thomas Izbicki
> Collection Development Coordinator
> Eisenhower Library
> Johns Hopkins
> Baltimore, MD 21218
> (410)516-7173
> fax (410)516-8399
>
>>>> [log in to unmask] 04/25/05 11:45 AM >>>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and=20
> culture
>
> Thanks to all who have sent references, which I will follow up.
> I=B4m intrigued that so much of the Holy Blood derives from bleeding
> hosts. I shouldn=B4t be surprised by this, especially in the later =
Middle
> Ages, but was expecting to find relics that might have emerged from
> the East during the crusades, i.e. that claimed to be blood from
> the Crucifixion itself.
> Meg
>
> **********************************************************************
> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> to: [log in to unmask]
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> [log in to unmask]
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>
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>
>
Gary Macy, Ph.D.
Professor
Department of Theology and Religious Studies
Associate Director of the Center for the Study of Latino/a Catholicism
University of San Diego
5998 Alcal=E1 Park
San Diego, CA 92110
619-260-4053
**********************************************************************
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:40:31 -0500
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Dennis Martin <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Holy Blood, again
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>>> [log in to unmask] 4/25/2005 1:49 PM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
. . . since theologians after about 1225 were=20
very suspicious of miracle hosts and even when they did accept the=20
possibility, they insisted that any flesh and blood produced by a=20
miracle could not be the flesh and blood of Christ. Transubstantiation=20
in fact makes this impossible since substance, not accidents (sense=20
data roughly) are what change here. Thomas Aquinas has a good=20
discussion of all this.
****
It could not be the _transubstantiated_ body of Christ, because by =
defintion that sacramental presence is not sense-perceptible and non-local.=
Agreed. But would not these same theologians have agree that Christ did =
appear after his resurrection in a sense-perceptible, local manner and is =
present in heaven in that manner. Would not the question then be how =
something not normally associated with the miracle of transubstantiation =
could be taking place, not that such a mode of Christ's corporeal presence =
(sense-perceptible, local) is simply impossible? In other words, whether =
or how a miracle added upon the sacrament-as-miracle could or should be =
taken as true?
****
Secondly, theologians including Thomas Aquinas=20
would have held that a belief in the actual physical (that is sensed)=20
presence of the body and blood of Christ would be a heresy=20
(Capharnaism).=20
****
Would this not apply only to claims of a sensed, local presence _in the =
sacrament of the Eucharist_? Otherwise the post-resurrection appearances =
would be Capharnaism? Or were they distinguishing between post-resurrectio=
n and pre-ascension appearances (local, sense-perceptibel) on the one hand =
and post-ascension appearances in visions etc. (all non-sense-perceptible, =
non-local)? Or does the non-local, non-sense-perceptible qualification =
apply only to the claims made about the substantial presence in the =
Eucharist, not to other apparitions or miraculous phenomena?
****
So, for many theologians in the thirteenth and=20
fourteenth century . . . any suggestion that the sensed, physical body=20
and blood of Christ is present in a miracle would be suspect at best=20
and heresy at worst. The presence they would accept and describe by=20
the term "transubstantiation" would be a substantial presence which=20
could be accessed only by the mind since that is how one accesses=20
substances.
****
"only by the mind" =3D/ non-sense-perceptible--Aquinas himself says "by =
faith"--is faith a matter only of mind? Certainly in involves will, =
heart, person, one's being as a whole. Excluding sense-perception does =
not reduce everything to mind, does it? Are substances accessible only by =
the mind? Normally the substance and sense-perceptible are the same so =
we access the substance of a thing by both mind and senses; in this case =
of the Eucharist, substance is not the same as the appearance, so the =
normal mode of mind-perception (via senses) fails, but does that mean that =
all that is left is mind-access? Aren't you getting a bit Kantian or =
Zwinglian here? Or are you using "mind" in a premodern sense, in the =
sense of _mens_? Using the word "mind" without explanation runs as much =
danger of misstating things in a Zwinglian or perhaps Berengarian manner =
as using "physical" runs the risk of misstating things in a Capharnaistic =
manner. The technical language does use _corporeal_ alongside substantial,=
but immediately qualifies it as a unique non-local and non-sense-perceptib=
le corporality.
An excessively "idealist" glossing of transubstantiation, out of fear of =
Capharnaism is a real danger in a modern world for which "mind" and =
"faith" mean something quite different than for Thomas Aquinas and the =
technical theologians of his day.
I also think it important to recall that the basic principles of the =
technical theology were set forth in the Corpus Christi sequences and =
hymns for the Office. The language there is careful to avoid local, =
sense-perceptible presence, but also underscores real reality, substantiali=
ty. How this all played out in the minds and hearts of those who learned =
enough Latin to understand those hymns poses a real challenge for modern =
scholars but I don't think that the technical transubstantiation theology =
was entirely inaccessible to people other than expert theologians. It =
surely was frequently misunderstood and the bleeding host miracles in =
many, probably most, instances represent such misunderstandings and =
indeed, Capharnaism. But I would not assume that every single instance of =
apparitions or visions or apparently tangible appearances of Christ =
associated with the Eucharist necessarily have to have been Capharnaitic. =
The theologians properly were concerned about this danger, but in a =
situation where the doctrine of substantial, corporeal, yet non-sense =
perceptible presence was under attack as being merely in the mind or =
merely symbolic, it would not be surprising that reports of unusual =
phenomena of this sort would occur, nor do I think that the theology of =
the Eucharist rules them out. It does urge very great caution, extreme =
skepticism, but not a priori impossibility of a visionary experience of =
Christ associated with but not identical with the non-visible, non-local =
substantial sacramental presence.
That distinction, of course, would have been lost on nearly everyone--it =
seems to be lost on most scholars addressing the issue today--the reports =
get reduced in one direction or another when handled by modern scholars. =
But if we are going to address the matter by introducing theological =
fine-points, why not fine-tune it just a bit more?
Dennis Martin
****
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:22:22 -0400
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Recent titles II
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
French:
Damien Boquet, L'ordre de l'affect au Moyen =C2ge. Autour de l'anthropologi=
e=20
affective d'Aelred de Rievaulx, Caen, Publications du Crahm (diffusion=20
Brepols), 2005.
Italian:
Pellegrini verso Loreto, ed. F. Grimaldi & K. Sordi (Ancona: s.n., 2003).
A.M. Corbo, Paolo II Barbo: dalla mercatura al papato 1464-1471 (Roma: =
Edilazio, 2004).
Tom Izbicki
Thomas Izbicki
Collection Development Coordinator
Eisenhower Library
Johns Hopkins
Baltimore, MD 21218
(410)516-7173
fax (410)516-8399
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:34:06 -0400
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Myra Struckmeyer <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Plague
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Thanks to everyone for the helpful suggestion for further research on
the Plague. I think I have enough information for a whole course on the
subject!
With much gratitude,
Myra Struckmeyer
On Apr 24, 2005, at 4:42 PM, John Dillon wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
>
> Dear Myra,
>
> If you're interested in immediate as well as in subsequent influence,
> you might have a look at Rosemary Horrox, tr. and ed., _The Black
> Death_
> (Manchester: Manchester University Press, 1994), pp. 35-41. This
> slightly abbreviated translation of Michael of Piazza's account
> (_Cronaca_, I, 27-29) of the plague's arrival at Messina and its
> subsequent effects there and elsewhere in Sicily is one of our best
> testimonies for a rapid high mortality among the lesser clergy, a
> phenomenon that certainly influenced for the worse the Church's ability
> to deliver pastoral services. Michael's account has a nice Black Dog
> story as well.
>
> Best,
> John Dillon
>
> PS: You may find Michael's references to the bishop of Catania as "the
> Patriarch" a bit confusing. The incumbent in question happens to have
> also been the (Latin) patriarch of Antioch.
>
>
> On Sunday, April 24, 2005, at 1:18 pm, Myra Struckmeyer wrote:
>
>> Dear list members,
>>
>> I am preparing a lecture on religion in the 14th century, a bit
>> after my usual
>> time of study, and I wondered how much influence "The Plague" had.
>> Is there
>> any consensus? What do you tell your students? Any comment will be
>> appreciated!
>
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:54:50 -0700
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Gary Macy <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Holy Blood, again
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
On Apr 25, 2005, at 12:40 PM, Dennis Martin wrote:
>
> . . . since theologians after about 1225 were
> very suspicious of miracle hosts and even when they did accept the
> possibility, they insisted that any flesh and blood produced by a
> miracle could not be the flesh and blood of Christ. =
Transubstantiation
> in fact makes this impossible since substance, not accidents (sense
> data roughly) are what change here. Thomas Aquinas has a good
> discussion of all this.
>
>
> ****
> It could not be the _transubstantiated_ body of Christ, because by=20
> defintion that sacramental presence is not sense-perceptible and=20
> non-local. Agreed. But would not these same theologians have agree=20=
> that Christ did appear after his resurrection in a sense-perceptible,=20=
> local manner and is present in heaven in that manner. Would not the=20=
> question then be how something not normally associated with the=20
> miracle of transubstantiation could be taking place, not that such a=20=
> mode of Christ's corporeal presence (sense-perceptible, local) is=20
> simply impossible? In other words, whether or how a miracle added=20
> upon the sacrament-as-miracle could or should be taken as true?
> ****
The theologians who discuss miracle hosts would argue that this may be=20=
flesh and blood, but cannot be Christ's flesh and blood since that can=20=
only be in one "locus". Theoretically, Christ could change locus, so=20=
he could appear to someone by leaving heaven, but that would be quite=20
different from the continuing presence of flesh and blood in a miracle=20=
host.
>
>
> Secondly, theologians including Thomas Aquinas
> would have held that a belief in the actual physical (that is sensed)
> presence of the body and blood of Christ would be a heresy
> (Capharnaism).
>
>
> ****
> Would this not apply only to claims of a sensed, local presence _in=20
> the sacrament of the Eucharist_? Otherwise the post-resurrection=20
> appearances would be Capharnaism? Or were they distinguishing between=20=
> post-resurrection and pre-ascension appearances (local,=20
> sense-perceptibel) on the one hand and post-ascension appearances in=20=
> visions etc. (all non-sense-perceptible, non-local)? Or does the=20
> non-local, non-sense-perceptible qualification apply only to the=20
> claims made about the substantial presence in the Eucharist, not to=20
> other apparitions or miraculous phenomena?
> ****
>
Capharnaism is the heresy that believes Christ is present in the=20
Eucharist in a sensed fashion. As far as I know, this heresy applies=20
only to the Eucharist since only in the Eucharist does Christ appear in=20=
a non-spatial, non-perceptible manner.
>
> So, for many theologians in the thirteenth and
> fourteenth century . . . any suggestion that the sensed, physical body
> and blood of Christ is present in a miracle would be suspect at best
> and heresy at worst. The presence they would accept and describe by
> the term "transubstantiation" would be a substantial presence which
> could be accessed only by the mind since that is how one accesses
> substances.
>
> ****
> "only by the mind" =3D/ non-sense-perceptible--Aquinas himself says =
"by=20
> faith"--is faith a matter only of mind? Certainly in involves will,=20=
> heart, person, one's being as a whole. Excluding sense-perception=20
> does not reduce everything to mind, does it? Are substances=20
> accessible only by the mind? Normally the substance and=20
> sense-perceptible are the same so we access the substance of a thing=20=
> by both mind and senses; in this case of the Eucharist, substance is=20=
> not the same as the appearance, so the normal mode of mind-perception=20=
> (via senses) fails, but does that mean that all that is left is=20
> mind-access? Aren't you getting a bit Kantian or Zwinglian here? Or=20=
> are you using "mind" in a premodern sense, in the sense of _mens_? =20
> Using the word "mind" without explanation runs as much danger of=20
> misstating things in a Zwinglian or perhaps Berengarian manner as=20
> using "physical" runs the risk of misstating things in a Capharnaistic=20=
> manner. The technical language does use _corporeal_ alongside=20
> substantial, but immediately qualifies it as a unique non-local and=20
> non-sense-perceptible corporality.
>
I didn't want to complicate matters too much in my original missive,=20
but I agree with you that the medieval understanding of mind cannot be=20=
equated with our understanding of mind. In general, however,=20
substances for them were accessible only through the mind. That form=20
of access did not rule out faith, however. Here the much more=20
important issue of the whole point of the Eucharist (the res in=20
medieval terms) comes to the fore. The point of the Eucharist was, for=20=
them, not the real presence which in itself cannot save anyone. The=20
point of the ritual was to aid or empower a person to live a life of=20
faith and active love. Without that (the res), the whole ritual is=20
pointless, as one theologian after another insisted. As Hugh of St.=20
Victor (probably the most influential theologian on this issue) put it=20=
-- when Jesus was alive many people met him, but not all accepted him=20
and were saved. So too in the sacrament. Jesus might be present, but=20=
the presence alone won't save you. So I guess I would say that active=20=
faith and love were more important than the real presence, and so more=20=
important than what one could access "substantialiter." The majority=20
of theologians did not even think that communion was necessary if one=20
lived an active life of faith and love, hence the role of spiritual=20
communion.
> An excessively "idealist" glossing of transubstantiation, out of fear=20=
> of Capharnaism is a real danger in a modern world for which "mind" and=20=
> "faith" mean something quite different than for Thomas Aquinas and the=20=
> technical theologians of his day.
>
> I also think it important to recall that the basic principles of the=20=
> technical theology were set forth in the Corpus Christi sequences and=20=
> hymns for the Office. The language there is careful to avoid local,=20=
> sense-perceptible presence, but also underscores real reality,=20
> substantiality. How this all played out in the minds and hearts of=20
> those who learned enough Latin to understand those hymns poses a real=20=
> challenge for modern scholars but I don't think that the technical=20
> transubstantiation theology was entirely inaccessible to people other=20=
> than expert theologians. It surely was frequently misunderstood and=20=
> the bleeding host miracles in many, probably most, instances represent=20=
> such misunderstandings and indeed, Capharnaism. But I would not=20
> assume that every single instance of apparitions or visions or=20
> apparently tangible appearances of Christ associated with the=20
> Eucharist necessarily have to have been Capharnaitic. The theologians=20=
> properly were concerned about this danger, but in a situation where=20
> the doctrine of substantial, corporeal, yet non-sense perceptible=20
> presence was under attack as being merely in the mind or merely=20
> symbolic, it would not be surprising that reports of unusual phenomena=20=
> of this sort would occur, nor do I think that the theology of the=20
> Eucharist rules them out. It does urge very great caution, extreme=20
> skepticism, but not a priori impossibility of a visionary experience=20=
> of Christ associated with but not identical with the non-visible,=20
> non-local substantial sacramental presence.
I am not sure that the doctrine was under attack by anyone who thought=20=
the presence was merely in the mind. That challenge would come later=20
in the sixteenth century. The Cathars attacked the idea that anything=20=
physical could be of spiritual value which is not quite the same thing.=20=
Berengar's challenge, I would argue, had a much more limited impact=20
and again does not quite argue that the presence is "merely" symbolic. =20=
Certainly theologians did accept that miracle hosts could occur to=20
strengthen belief in the real presence, but whatever continued to exist=20=
in the form of flesh and blood could not be Christ's flesh and blood.
>
> That distinction, of course, would have been lost on nearly=20
> everyone--it seems to be lost on most scholars addressing the issue=20
> today--the reports get reduced in one direction or another when=20
> handled by modern scholars. But if we are going to address the matter=20=
> by introducing theological fine-points, why not fine-tune it just a=20
> bit more?
I really appreciate your fine tuning. It is so very difficult to=20
capture the medieval thinking on this issue without conjuring up the=20
entire modern problem of mind and body as well as the Reformation=20
debates on faith. The medieval theologians, just to complicate life=20
for us I am sure, also did not agree as to how transubstantiation=20
worked. I tried to spell out some of the differences in my article,=20
"The Dogma of Transubstantiation in the Middle Ages," (Journal of=20
Ecclesiastical History, vol. 45 (1994): 11-41). Thomas, for example,=20
uses "substantialiter" interchangeably with "spiritualiter" and=20
"intellectualiter" in his discussion of the Eucharist. To say however=20=
that he understood the substantial presence as "spiritual" or=20
"intellectual" in the modern sense would be very misleading and=20
inaccurate. Finding the right modern terminology to express this (that=20=
is without reverting to Latin and Aristotle) is a real challenge. It=20
gets even tougher with Scotus and Ockham who have a very sophisticated=20=
rejection of Thomas' understanding of transubstantiation while at the=20
same time accepting both the real presence and transubstantiation.
Again, thanks so much for your clarifications.
>
> Dennis Martin
> ****
>
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Gary Macy, Ph.D.
Professor
Department of Theology and Religious Studies
Associate Director of the Center for the Study of Latino/a Catholicism
University of San Diego
5998 Alcal=E1 Park
San Diego, CA 92110
619-260-4053
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On Apr 25, 2005, at 12:40 PM, Dennis Martin wrote:
<excerpt>
. . . since theologians after about 1225 were=20
very suspicious of miracle hosts and even when they did accept the=20
possibility, they insisted that any flesh and blood produced by a=20
miracle could not be the flesh and blood of Christ.=20
Transubstantiation=20
in fact makes this impossible since substance, not accidents (sense=20
data roughly) are what change here. Thomas Aquinas has a good=20
discussion of all this.
****
It could not be the _transubstantiated_ body of Christ, because by
defintion that sacramental presence is not sense-perceptible and
non-local. Agreed. But would not these same theologians have agree
that Christ did appear after his resurrection in a sense-perceptible,
local manner and is present in heaven in that manner. Would not the
question then be how something not normally associated with the
miracle of transubstantiation could be taking place, not that such a
mode of Christ's corporeal presence (sense-perceptible, local) is
simply impossible? In other words, whether or how a miracle added
upon the sacrament-as-miracle could or should be taken as true?
****
</excerpt>The theologians who discuss miracle hosts would argue that
this may be flesh and blood, but cannot be Christ's flesh and blood
since that can only be in one "locus". Theoretically, Christ could
change locus, so he could appear to someone by leaving heaven, but
that would be quite different from the continuing presence of flesh
and blood in a miracle host.
<excerpt>
Secondly, theologians including Thomas Aquinas=20
would have held that a belief in the actual physical (that is sensed)=20
presence of the body and blood of Christ would be a heresy=20
(Capharnaism).=20
****
Would this not apply only to claims of a sensed, local presence _in
the sacrament of the Eucharist_? Otherwise the post-resurrection
appearances would be Capharnaism? Or were they distinguishing between
post-resurrection and pre-ascension appearances (local,
sense-perceptibel) on the one hand and post-ascension appearances in
visions etc. (all non-sense-perceptible, non-local)? Or does the
non-local, non-sense-perceptible qualification apply only to the
claims made about the substantial presence in the Eucharist, not to
other apparitions or miraculous phenomena?
****
</excerpt>Capharnaism is the heresy that believes Christ is present in
the Eucharist in a sensed fashion. As far as I know, this heresy
applies only to the Eucharist since only in the Eucharist does Christ
appear in a non-spatial, non-perceptible manner.
<excerpt>
So, for many theologians in the thirteenth and=20
fourteenth century . . . any suggestion that the sensed, physical body=20=
and blood of Christ is present in a miracle would be suspect at best=20
and heresy at worst. The presence they would accept and describe by=20
the term "transubstantiation" would be a substantial presence which=20
could be accessed only by the mind since that is how one accesses=20
substances.
****
"only by the mind" =3D/ non-sense-perceptible--Aquinas himself says "by
faith"--is faith a matter only of mind? Certainly in involves will,
heart, person, one's being as a whole. Excluding sense-perception
does not reduce everything to mind, does it? Are substances
accessible only by the mind? Normally the substance and
sense-perceptible are the same so we access the substance of a thing
by both mind and senses; in this case of the Eucharist, substance is
not the same as the appearance, so the normal mode of mind-perception
(via senses) fails, but does that mean that all that is left is
mind-access? Aren't you getting a bit Kantian or Zwinglian here? Or
are you using "mind" in a premodern sense, in the sense of _mens_?=20
Using the word "mind" without explanation runs as much danger of
misstating things in a Zwinglian or perhaps Berengarian manner as
using "physical" runs the risk of misstating things in a Capharnaistic
manner. The technical language does use _corporeal_ alongside
substantial, but immediately qualifies it as a unique non-local and
non-sense-perceptible corporality.
</excerpt>I didn't want to complicate matters too much in my original
missive, but I agree with you that the medieval understanding of mind
cannot be equated with our understanding of mind. In general,
however, substances for them were accessible only through the mind.=20
That form of access did not rule out faith, however. Here the much
more important issue of the whole point of the Eucharist (the res in
medieval terms) comes to the fore. The point of the Eucharist was,
for them, not the real presence which in itself cannot save anyone.=20
The point of the ritual was to aid or empower a person to live a life
of faith and active love. Without that (the res), the whole ritual is
pointless, as one theologian after another insisted. As Hugh of St.
Victor (probably the most influential theologian on this issue) put it
-- when Jesus was alive many people met him, but not all accepted him
and were saved. So too in the sacrament. Jesus might be present, but
the presence alone won't save you. So I guess I would say that
active faith and love were more important than the real presence, and
so more important than what one could access "substantialiter." The
majority of theologians did not even think that communion was
necessary if one lived an active life of faith and love, hence the
role of spiritual communion.
<excerpt>An excessively "idealist" glossing of transubstantiation, out
of fear of Capharnaism is a real danger in a modern world for which
"mind" and "faith" mean something quite different than for Thomas
Aquinas and the technical theologians of his day.
I also think it important to recall that the basic principles of the
technical theology were set forth in the Corpus Christi sequences and
hymns for the Office. The language there is careful to avoid local,
sense-perceptible presence, but also underscores real reality,
substantiality. How this all played out in the minds and hearts of
those who learned enough Latin to understand those hymns poses a real
challenge for modern scholars but I don't think that the technical
transubstantiation theology was entirely inaccessible to people other
than expert theologians. It surely was frequently misunderstood and
the bleeding host miracles in many, probably most, instances represent
such misunderstandings and indeed, Capharnaism. But I would not
assume that every single instance of apparitions or visions or
apparently tangible appearances of Christ associated with the
Eucharist necessarily have to have been Capharnaitic. The theologians
properly were concerned about this danger, but in a situation where
the doctrine of substantial, corporeal, yet non-sense perceptible
presence was under attack as being merely in the mind or merely
symbolic, it would not be surprising that reports of unusual phenomena
of this sort would occur, nor do I think that the theology of the
Eucharist rules them out. It does urge very great caution, extreme
skepticism, but not a priori impossibility of a visionary experience
of Christ associated with but not identical with the non-visible,
non-local substantial sacramental presence.
</excerpt>
I am not sure that the doctrine was under attack by anyone who thought
the presence was merely in the mind. That challenge would come later
in the sixteenth century. The Cathars attacked the idea that anything
physical could be of spiritual value which is not quite the same
thing. Berengar's challenge, I would argue, had a much more limited
impact and again does not quite argue that the presence is "merely"
symbolic. Certainly theologians did accept that miracle hosts could
occur to strengthen belief in the real presence, but whatever
continued to exist in the form of flesh and blood could not be
Christ's flesh and blood.
<excerpt>
That distinction, of course, would have been lost on nearly
everyone--it seems to be lost on most scholars addressing the issue
today--the reports get reduced in one direction or another when
handled by modern scholars. But if we are going to address the matter
by introducing theological fine-points, why not fine-tune it just a
bit more?
</excerpt>
I really appreciate your fine tuning. It is so very difficult to
capture the medieval thinking on this issue without conjuring up the
entire modern problem of mind and body as well as the Reformation
debates on faith. The medieval theologians, just to complicate life
for us I am sure, also did not agree as to how transubstantiation
worked. I tried to spell out some of the differences in my article,
"The Dogma of Transubstantiation in the Middle Ages," (Journal of
Ecclesiastical History, vol. 45 (1994): 11-41). Thomas, for example,
uses "substantialiter" interchangeably with "spiritualiter" and
"intellectualiter" in his discussion of the Eucharist. To say however
that he understood the substantial presence as "spiritual" or
"intellectual" in the modern sense would be very misleading and
inaccurate. Finding the right modern terminology to express this
(that is without reverting to Latin and Aristotle) is a real
challenge. It gets even tougher with Scotus and Ockham who have a
very sophisticated rejection of Thomas' understanding of
transubstantiation while at the same time accepting both the real
presence and transubstantiation.
Again, thanks so much for your =
clarifications.<fontfamily><param>Times New Roman</param><bigger>
</bigger></fontfamily>
<excerpt>
Dennis Martin
****
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</excerpt>Gary Macy, Ph.D.
Professor
Department of Theology and Religious Studies
Associate Director of the Center for the Study of Latino/a Catholicism
University of San Diego
5998 Alcal=E1 Park
San Diego, CA 92110
619-260-4053
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:54:34 -0700
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Today (26. April) is the feast day of:
Peter of Braga (d. c. 350) Actually a fourth-century bishop of Braga
(Portugal), legend makes Peter a disciple of St. James the Greater.
He is supposed to have been martyred after he baptized the local
ruler's daughter and cured her of leprosy.
Richarius (d. c. 645) Richarius (Riquier) was a Frank. He became a
priest, studied in England (?), came home again, and became a very
successful preacher. He founded the monastery at Celles (modern
Abbeville) and served as abbot.
Paschasius Radbertus (d. c. 860) Paschasius Radbertus started life
as a foundling, raised by the nuns of Notre Dame de Soissons. He
became a monk at Corbie and in 822 was one of the group of monks sent
off to found New Corbie (Corvey) in Westphalia. PR returned to old
Corbie before his death. He was one of the leading writers of the
Carolingian renaissance---his most important work was a treatise De
corpore et sanguine Christe (which, by the way, strongly advocated
the doctrine of the Real Presence).
Franca of Piacenza (d. 1218) Franca was a native of Piacenza, raised
at the convent there and professed at age 14. She became abbess, but
was kicked out because she was too strict; she soon became abbess of
a new convent at Montelana (later moved to Pittoli). Pope Gregory X
approved F's cult.
Stephen of Perm (d. 1396) Stephen was a Russian who became a monk at
Rostov and worked as a missionary among the Zyriane (I confess I've
never heard of them). He translated the liturgy and part of the
Bible into their language and founded several schools. In 1383 he
became first bishop of Perm.
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Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 13:14:19 +0100
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From: Dee Dyas <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Kalamazoo Invitation
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
APOLOGIES FOR CROSS-POSTING
Just to invite those who will be at Kalamazoo to the Christianity and
Culture lunchtime reception (Friday 6 May 11.45 am in Bernhard 205) when
there will be a brief presentation on the new CD ROM under
construction, 'Pilgrims and Pilgrimage in Medieval England', and on 'The
Bible in Western Culture: the Student's Guide'.
You are also warmly invited to attend the following sponsored sessions:
Saturday 7 May 3.30 pm
Medieval Romance and Christianity (Sangren 2212)
Sunday 8 May 8.30 am
Malory and Christianity I (Valley 1 102)
Sunday 8 May 10.30 am
Malory and Christianity II (Valley 1 102)
Dee Dyas
Dr Dee Dyas
Director, Christianity and Culture
Centre for Medieval Studies, York
& St John's College, Nottingham
Tel. ++ 44 (0) 115 925 5388
[log in to unmask]
Mailing address:
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Subject: Welcome back, Supple Doctor
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I am glad to say that I am now back on list, having been away for a while in Washington DC working on the new translation of the Missal. A new acquisition at ICEL is a beautiful photographic edition of the Gelasian Sacramentary, MS Vat Reg Lat 316.Has anyone used it, or worked on it?
I come home to find a new Pope, Benedict, and a new grand-daughter, Sophie. It seems I can't turn my back for a moment!
Bill.
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
<DIV>I am glad to say that I am now back on list, having been away for a while in Washington DC working on the new translation of the Missal. A new acquisition at ICEL is a beautiful photographic edition of the Gelasian Sacramentary, MS Vat Reg Lat 316.Has anyone used it, or worked on it?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I come home to find a new Pope, Benedict, and a new grand-daughter, Sophie. It seems I can't turn my back for a moment!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Bill.</DIV><BR><BR><DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"></DIV></DIV></DIV><p>Send instant messages to your online friends
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42] The inquisition of Francisca : a sixteenth-century visionary on
trial / Francisca de los Apostoles ; edited and translated by Gillian
T.W. Ahlgren. (The other voice in early modern Europe. (Cloth ed.)) U of
Chicago Pr. 0226142221. R6-491924. 2005. US. USD45.00
[50] Mulder-Bakker, Anneke B. Lives of the anchoresses : the rise of
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translated by Myra Heerspink Scholz. (Middle Ages series) Univ
Pennsylvania Pr. 0812238524. R4-493416. 2005. US. USD55.00
[52] Page, Sophie. Magic in medieval manuscripts / Sophie Page. Br.Lib.
Mrkt.Pub/Extenza Turpin, UK. 0712348131. L8-687635. 2004. UK. Paper.
GBP7.95
[53] The making of Christian communities in late antiquity and the
middle ages / (edited by) Mark Williams. Anthem Press, UK/Central Bks..
1898855773. L9-684984. 2005. UK. Paper. GBP18.95
[54] Medieval religion : new approaches / edited by Constance Hoffman
Berman. (Rewriting histories) Routledge. 0415316863. L6-685739. 2005.
UK. GBP60.00
[55] Cross, Richard. The metaphysics of the Incarnation : Thomas
Aquinas to Duns Scotus Oxford U.P.. 0199281084. B3-733251. 2005. UK.
Paper. GBP22.50
[56] Bellenger, Dominic Aidan. The mitre & the crown : a history of the
Archbiships of Canterbury / Dominic Aidan Bellenger & Stella Fletcher.
Sutton Publ.Ltd.. 0750931213. L3-685508. 2005. UK. GBP20.00
[59] Bhatnagar, R. S. Mystical vision and thought in medieval Sufism
(Studies in Asian thought & religion, v.29) Edwin Mellen Pr. 0773462279.
V6-K76222. 2005. US. USD109.95
[60] The occult in Medieval Europe, 500-1500 : a documentary history /
edited and translated by P.G. Maxwell-Stuart. Palgrave Macmillan.
1403902909. R2-490260. 2005. US. USD72.00
[62] Nasir al-Din Tusi. Paradise of submission : a medieval treatise on
Ismaili thought (Ismaili texts and translations series, 5) 1860644368.
B1-521869. 2005. UK. GBP35.00
[63] Dreyer, Elizabeth, 1945- Passionate spirituality : Hildegard of
Bingen and Hadewijch of Brabant / Elizabeth A. Dreyer. Paulist.
0809143046. R3-489584. 2005. US. Paper. USD16.95
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[64] Peter Martyr Vermigli and the European Reformations : semper
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Christian traditions, v.115) Brill Academic Pubs. 9004139141. R6-494645.
2004. US. USD147.00
[66] Reff, Daniel T., 1949- Plagues, priests, and demons : sacred
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GBP40.00
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[70] Claussen, M. A. (Martin A.) The reform of the Frankish church :
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M.A. Claussen (Cambridge studies in medieval life and thought. Fourth
series, 61) Cambridge U.P.. 0521839319. L9-680756. 2004. UK. GBP48.00
[75] Hodgson, Marshall G. S. The secret order of assassins : the
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2005. US. Paper. USD24.95
[77] The spiritual conversion of the Americas / edited by James
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[79] Women's space : patronage, place, and gender in the medieval
church / edited by Virginia Chieffo Raguin and Sarah Stanbury. (SUNY
Series in medieval studies) State U of N Y Pr. 0791463656. R2-495524.
2005. US. USD85.00
[81] Ghazzali, 1058-1111. Worship in Islam : being a translation, with
commentary and introduction, of al-Ghazzali's Book of the Ihya on the
worship / by the Rev. Edwin Elliot Calverley. Gorgias Press, US.
1593331118. R8-487905. 2004. US. USD55.00
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Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:29:22 -0500
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Kimberly Rivers <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Recent titles
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Dear Dr. Izbicki,
I just wanted you to know that I find your listing of recent publications to be really useful. I always scroll through them and occasionally find something that I hadn't seen elsewhere. Just last week I saw a book on the formation of the Hebrew Bible, published by Dove books, that I might not have discovered for years. Since as educators we so seldom hear about the usefulness of the things we do, I thought I would let you know that your work is appreciated!
Sincerely,
Kim Rivers
Kimberly Rivers Department of History
Associate Professor University of Wisconsin-Oshkosh
(920) 424-2451 [log in to unmask]
----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:25 am
Subject: [M-R] Recent titles
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
> 42] The inquisition of Francisca : a sixteenth-century visionary on
> trial / Francisca de los Apostoles ; edited and translated by Gillian
> T.W. Ahlgren. (The other voice in early modern Europe. (Cloth ed.))
> U of
> Chicago Pr. 0226142221. R6-491924. 2005. US. USD45.00
>
> [50] Mulder-Bakker, Anneke B. Lives of the anchoresses : the rise of
> the urban recluse in medieval Europe / Anneke B. Mulder-Bakker ;
> translated by Myra Heerspink Scholz. (Middle Ages series) Univ
> Pennsylvania Pr. 0812238524. R4-493416. 2005. US. USD55.00
>
> [52] Page, Sophie. Magic in medieval manuscripts / Sophie Page.
> Br.Lib.Mrkt.Pub/Extenza Turpin, UK. 0712348131. L8-687635. 2004.
> UK. Paper.
> GBP7.95
>
> [53] The making of Christian communities in late antiquity and the
> middle ages / (edited by) Mark Williams. Anthem Press, UK/Central
> Bks..1898855773. L9-684984. 2005. UK. Paper. GBP18.95
>
> [54] Medieval religion : new approaches / edited by Constance Hoffman
> Berman. (Rewriting histories) Routledge. 0415316863. L6-685739. 2005.
> UK. GBP60.00
>
> [55] Cross, Richard. The metaphysics of the Incarnation : Thomas
> Aquinas to Duns Scotus Oxford U.P.. 0199281084. B3-733251. 2005. UK.
> Paper. GBP22.50
>
> [56] Bellenger, Dominic Aidan. The mitre & the crown : a history of
> theArchbiships of Canterbury / Dominic Aidan Bellenger & Stella
> Fletcher.Sutton Publ.Ltd.. 0750931213. L3-685508. 2005. UK. GBP20.00
>
> [59] Bhatnagar, R. S. Mystical vision and thought in medieval Sufism
> (Studies in Asian thought & religion, v.29) Edwin Mellen Pr.
> 0773462279.V6-K76222. 2005. US. USD109.95
>
> [60] The occult in Medieval Europe, 500-1500 : a documentary
> history /
> edited and translated by P.G. Maxwell-Stuart. Palgrave Macmillan.
> 1403902909. R2-490260. 2005. US. USD72.00
>
> [62] Nasir al-Din Tusi. Paradise of submission : a medieval
> treatise on
> Ismaili thought (Ismaili texts and translations series, 5) 1860644368.
> B1-521869. 2005. UK. GBP35.00
>
> [63] Dreyer, Elizabeth, 1945- Passionate spirituality : Hildegard of
> Bingen and Hadewijch of Brabant / Elizabeth A. Dreyer. Paulist.
> 0809143046. R3-489584. 2005. US. Paper. USD16.95
> [ Detail | Editions | TOC | Email | Request | Library notes ]
>
> [64] Peter Martyr Vermigli and the European Reformations : semper
> reformanda / edited by Frank A. James III. (Studies in the history of
> Christian traditions, v.115) Brill Academic Pubs. 9004139141. R6-
> 494645.2004. US. USD147.00
>
> [66] Reff, Daniel T., 1949- Plagues, priests, and demons : sacred
> narratives and the rise of Christianity in the Old World and the
> New /
> Daniel T. Reff. Cambridge U.P.. 0521840783. L0-681968. 2005. UK.
> GBP40.00
> [ Detail | Editions | TOC | Email | Request | Library notes ]
>
> [70] Claussen, M. A. (Martin A.) The reform of the Frankish church :
> Chrodegang of Metz and the Regula canonicorum in the eighth century /
> M.A. Claussen (Cambridge studies in medieval life and thought. Fourth
> series, 61) Cambridge U.P.. 0521839319. L9-680756. 2004. UK. GBP48.00
>
> [75] Hodgson, Marshall G. S. The secret order of assassins : the
> struggle of the early Nizari Ismailis against the Islamic world /
> Marshall G.S. Hodgson. Univ Pennsylvania Pr. 0812219163. R2-493496.
> 2005. US. Paper. USD24.95
>
> [77] The spiritual conversion of the Americas / edited by James
> Muldoon. U Pr of Florida. 0813027713. R7-495771. 2004. US. USD65.00
>
> [79] Women's space : patronage, place, and gender in the medieval
> church / edited by Virginia Chieffo Raguin and Sarah Stanbury. (SUNY
> Series in medieval studies) State U of N Y Pr. 0791463656. R2-495524.
> 2005. US. USD85.00
>
> [81] Ghazzali, 1058-1111. Worship in Islam : being a translation, with
> commentary and introduction, of al-Ghazzali's Book of the Ihya on the
> worship / by the Rev. Edwin Elliot Calverley. Gorgias Press, US.
> 1593331118. R8-487905. 2004. US. USD55.00
>
> Tom Izbicki
>
> Thomas Izbicki
> Collection Development Coordinator
> Eisenhower Library
> Johns Hopkins
> Baltimore, MD 21218
> (410)516-7173
> fax (410)516-8399
>
> **********************************************************************
> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> to: [log in to unmask]
> To send a message to the list, address it to:
> [log in to unmask]
> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> to: [log in to unmask]
> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> [log in to unmask]
> For further information, visit our web site:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 09:31:36 -0400
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Recent titles
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Many thanks. It is good to be appreciated.
Tom Izbicki
Thomas Izbicki
Collection Development Coordinator
Eisenhower Library
Johns Hopkins
Baltimore, MD 21218
(410)516-7173
fax (410)516-8399
>>> [log in to unmask] 04/26/05 9:29 AM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
culture
Dear Dr. Izbicki,
I just wanted you to know that I find your listing of recent
publications to be really useful. I always scroll through them and
occasionally find something that I hadn't seen elsewhere. Just last week
I saw a book on the formation of the Hebrew Bible, published by Dove
books, that I might not have discovered for years. Since as educators
we so seldom hear about the usefulness of the things we do, I thought I
would let you know that your work is appreciated!
Sincerely,
Kim Rivers
Kimberly Rivers Department of History
Associate Professor University of Wisconsin-Oshkosh
(920) 424-2451 [log in to unmask]
----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:25 am
Subject: [M-R] Recent titles
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
> 42] The inquisition of Francisca : a sixteenth-century visionary on
> trial / Francisca de los Apostoles ; edited and translated by
Gillian
> T.W. Ahlgren. (The other voice in early modern Europe. (Cloth ed.))
> U of
> Chicago Pr. 0226142221. R6-491924. 2005. US. USD45.00
>
> [50] Mulder-Bakker, Anneke B. Lives of the anchoresses : the rise of
> the urban recluse in medieval Europe / Anneke B. Mulder-Bakker ;
> translated by Myra Heerspink Scholz. (Middle Ages series) Univ
> Pennsylvania Pr. 0812238524. R4-493416. 2005. US. USD55.00
>
> [52] Page, Sophie. Magic in medieval manuscripts / Sophie Page.
> Br.Lib.Mrkt.Pub/Extenza Turpin, UK. 0712348131. L8-687635. 2004.
> UK. Paper.
> GBP7.95
>
> [53] The making of Christian communities in late antiquity and the
> middle ages / (edited by) Mark Williams. Anthem Press, UK/Central
> Bks..1898855773. L9-684984. 2005. UK. Paper. GBP18.95
>
> [54] Medieval religion : new approaches / edited by Constance
Hoffman
> Berman. (Rewriting histories) Routledge. 0415316863. L6-685739.
2005.
> UK. GBP60.00
>
> [55] Cross, Richard. The metaphysics of the Incarnation : Thomas
> Aquinas to Duns Scotus Oxford U.P.. 0199281084. B3-733251. 2005. UK.
> Paper. GBP22.50
>
> [56] Bellenger, Dominic Aidan. The mitre & the crown : a history of
> theArchbiships of Canterbury / Dominic Aidan Bellenger & Stella
> Fletcher.Sutton Publ.Ltd.. 0750931213. L3-685508. 2005. UK. GBP20.00
>
> [59] Bhatnagar, R. S. Mystical vision and thought in medieval Sufism
> (Studies in Asian thought & religion, v.29) Edwin Mellen Pr.
> 0773462279.V6-K76222. 2005. US. USD109.95
>
> [60] The occult in Medieval Europe, 500-1500 : a documentary
> history /
> edited and translated by P.G. Maxwell-Stuart. Palgrave Macmillan.
> 1403902909. R2-490260. 2005. US. USD72.00
>
> [62] Nasir al-Din Tusi. Paradise of submission : a medieval
> treatise on
> Ismaili thought (Ismaili texts and translations series, 5)
1860644368.
> B1-521869. 2005. UK. GBP35.00
>
> [63] Dreyer, Elizabeth, 1945- Passionate spirituality : Hildegard of
> Bingen and Hadewijch of Brabant / Elizabeth A. Dreyer. Paulist.
> 0809143046. R3-489584. 2005. US. Paper. USD16.95
> [ Detail | Editions | TOC | Email | Request | Library notes ]
>
> [64] Peter Martyr Vermigli and the European Reformations : semper
> reformanda / edited by Frank A. James III. (Studies in the history
of
> Christian traditions, v.115) Brill Academic Pubs. 9004139141. R6-
> 494645.2004. US. USD147.00
>
> [66] Reff, Daniel T., 1949- Plagues, priests, and demons : sacred
> narratives and the rise of Christianity in the Old World and the
> New /
> Daniel T. Reff. Cambridge U.P.. 0521840783. L0-681968. 2005. UK.
> GBP40.00
> [ Detail | Editions | TOC | Email | Request | Library notes ]
>
> [70] Claussen, M. A. (Martin A.) The reform of the Frankish church :
> Chrodegang of Metz and the Regula canonicorum in the eighth century
/
> M.A. Claussen (Cambridge studies in medieval life and thought.
Fourth
> series, 61) Cambridge U.P.. 0521839319. L9-680756. 2004. UK.
GBP48.00
>
> [75] Hodgson, Marshall G. S. The secret order of assassins : the
> struggle of the early Nizari Ismailis against the Islamic world /
> Marshall G.S. Hodgson. Univ Pennsylvania Pr. 0812219163. R2-493496.
> 2005. US. Paper. USD24.95
>
> [77] The spiritual conversion of the Americas / edited by James
> Muldoon. U Pr of Florida. 0813027713. R7-495771. 2004. US. USD65.00
>
> [79] Women's space : patronage, place, and gender in the medieval
> church / edited by Virginia Chieffo Raguin and Sarah Stanbury. (SUNY
> Series in medieval studies) State U of N Y Pr. 0791463656.
R2-495524.
> 2005. US. USD85.00
>
> [81] Ghazzali, 1058-1111. Worship in Islam : being a translation,
with
> commentary and introduction, of al-Ghazzali's Book of the Ihya on
the
> worship / by the Rev. Edwin Elliot Calverley. Gorgias Press, US.
> 1593331118. R8-487905. 2004. US. USD55.00
>
> Tom Izbicki
>
> Thomas Izbicki
> Collection Development Coordinator
> Eisenhower Library
> Johns Hopkins
> Baltimore, MD 21218
> (410)516-7173
> fax (410)516-8399
>
>
**********************************************************************
> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> to: [log in to unmask]
> To send a message to the list, address it to:
> [log in to unmask]
> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> to: [log in to unmask]
> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write
to:
> [log in to unmask]
> For further information, visit our web site:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>
**********************************************************************
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:35:46 -0500
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Christopher Crockett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Recent titles
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: Kimberly Rivers <[log in to unmask]>
> I just wanted you to know that I find your listing of recent publicatio=
ns to
be really useful. =
>I thought I would let you know that your work is appreciated!
Seconded.
now, Tom, if you could just read all those books as you get them and prov=
ide
us with a pity (albeit exhaustive) summary of what the devil's in them, *=
that*
would be a *real* service, and might even get you another post expressing=
appreciation.
c
"Lots of useless other data points just enlarge the consciousness of the
agrieved showing how particular the pain is." =
--Burma Shave
**********************************************************************
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 09:53:44 -0400
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Recent titles
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Now there's a thought. If only I could get paid for running Recent
Titles the product.
Tom
Thomas Izbicki
Collection Development Coordinator
Eisenhower Library
Johns Hopkins
Baltimore, MD 21218
(410)516-7173
fax (410)516-8399
>>> [log in to unmask] 04/26/05 9:35 AM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
culture
From: Kimberly Rivers <[log in to unmask]>
> I just wanted you to know that I find your listing of recent
publications to
be really useful.
>I thought I would let you know that your work is appreciated!
Seconded.
now, Tom, if you could just read all those books as you get them and
provide
us with a pity (albeit exhaustive) summary of what the devil's in them,
*that*
would be a *real* service, and might even get you another post
expressing
appreciation.
c
"Lots of useless other data points just enlarge the consciousness of
the
agrieved showing how particular the pain is."
--Burma Shave
**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 09:14:04 -0500
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Christopher Crockett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Recent titles
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
> Now there's a thought. If only I could get paid for running Recent
Titles the product.
you just do what i tole you and i'll take up a collection, pay you plenty=
=2E
shucks, complete summaries of a few hundred books a year, we could put ou=
t
yearly CD-ROMs and make enough for *both* our Golden Years.
for starters, Granpaw Supple would surely get a lifetime subscription for=
his
new granddaughter.
ListMommie George would have to have one as well, to be sure that there w=
asn't
anything "non-medieval" (*what* a Concept) on them.
c
> >>> [log in to unmask] 04/26/05 9:35 AM >>>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
> =
> From: Kimberly Rivers <[log in to unmask]>
> =
> > I just wanted you to know that I find your listing of recent
> publications to
> be really useful.
> =
> >I thought I would let you know that your work is appreciated!
> =
> =
> Seconded.
> =
> now, Tom, if you could just read all those books as you get them and
> provide
> us with a pity (albeit exhaustive) summary of what the devil's in them,=
> *that*
> would be a *real* service, and might even get you another post
> expressing
> appreciation.
> =
> c
> =
> =
> =
> "Lots of useless other data points just enlarge the consciousness of
> the
> agrieved showing how particular the pain is."
> --Burma Shave
**********************************************************************
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 07:45:46 -0700
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Marjorie Greene <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Recent titles/Abelard
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Having "discovered" and ordered (but not yet read) Constant Mews book on A
and H, I'm wondering if anyone has news of the progress being made by
Michael Clanchy on his latest edition of _Abelard_, which I am breathlessly
awaiting. Brenda...?
MG
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
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Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 19:41:36 +0000
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Vadim Prozorov <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: saints of the day 26. April
In-Reply-To: <p05100306be933f994eb8@[68.63.233.149]>
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
The Zyriane (an archaic Russian designation for Komi people), a Finno-Ugr=
ic=20
nation, mainly live in the Republic of Komi in the Russian Federation=20
(336.000) along the North Dvina and Upper Kama. Perm=92 possibly derives =
from=20
the Finnish Per=E4maa (hinterland).
St. Stephen of Perm=92 (born c. 1345,Veliky Ustyug, principality of=20
Vladimir-Suzdal [in Russia]; feast day April 26) created an alphabet for =
the=20
Zyriane and translated liturgical texts into Old Permic language. See=20
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/oldpermic.htm
Vadim Prozorov
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 16:17:21 -0700
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phyllis Jestice <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: saints of the day 27. April
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Today (27. April) is the feast day of:
Anthimus (d. 303) Anthimus was a Roman priest. He converted a
prefect, and when this was discovered A. was arrested and was
convicted to death by drowning. Legend tells that A. was
miraculously saved, but recaptured and beheaded.
Asicus (d. c. 470) Legend tells that Asicus (or Tassach) was an
early disciple of St. Patrick who was made first abbot-bishop of
Elphin in Co. Roscommon (although it should be noted that monasticism
didn't exist in Ireland this early). He is said to have fled his
office to become a hermit on an island in Donegal Bay, but his monks
found him seven years later. They started to take him back to
Elphin, but he died on the way. Apparently he REALLY didn't want to
be a bishop and/or abbot. As a person under threat of becoming a
department chair, I can sympathize.
Maughold (d. c. 498) Legend tells that Maughold (MacCaldus) was an
Irish outlaw converted by St. Patrick. As a penance, he was ordered
to set out to sea (fettered), in a coracle without oars or rudder.
He washed ashore on the Isle of Man, where he became a successful
missionary and was elected bishop.
Stephen of Pechersky (d. 1094) Stephen was a monk at the Caves
(Kiev). He was elected abbot in 1074 but replaced four years later,
so he went off to found the monastery of Blakhernae. In 1091 he
became bishop of Vladimir.
Zita (d. 1278) Zita was born to poor people of Monte Sagrati (Italy)
She became a servant in a wool-dealer's household, specializing in
diligence, asceticism, and general holiness. She continued as a
servant for the family for c. 48 years, until her death, but had a
surprisingly public role during that time, working on behalf of the
poor and criminals and working a lot of miracles. Z. was canonized
in 1696---she's the patron saint of servants.
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Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 18:12:53 -0400
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Charles Giguere <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: saints of the day 26. April
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Thanks for the great web site, Vladimir!
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Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 22:48:28 -0500
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: John Dillon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: saints of the day 27. April
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Phyllis' source is both perversely hyperaccurate (though not currently
correct) about Santa Zita's birthplace and perversely reticent about her
place of employment, death, and laying to rest. According to what
Papebroch calls her contemporary Life (BHL 9019, 9020; I haven't
inquired into current thinking about the date), Z. was born at a place
called Monte Segradi in the diocese of Lucca (today's Monsagrati [LU])
and it was in the latter city, approximately 12 km. distant from her
natal town, that -- apart from one pilgrimage to Pisa and frequent brief
trips to a monastery outside of Lucca -- she spent the remainder of her
life after moving there at the age of 12. Lucca, of course, is
reasonably well known and Monsagrati is not and it is hard to fathom
what the reason may have been (other, perhaps, than easily remediable
ignorance) for Phyllis' source to so conceal Z.'s Luccan identity. It
is as though a saint of nineteenth-century New Orleans (I speak
hypothetically, of course) had been identified geographically only as
having been born in Metairie (USA).
According to her Life (which repays reading), Z. was laid to rest in her
neighborhood church, one that may be familiar to some on this list.
Here's a front view:
http://www.itclucca.lu.it/interessanti/luccacittadarte/2id/S.FREDIA/chies1.jpg
TinyURL for this: http://tinyurl.com/bgfkz
And here are a couple of close-ups of its famous mosaic:
http://www.provincia.asti.it/edu/smgoria/sfrediano.htm
http://web.genie.it/utenti/e/enigmagalgano/Immagini/jpeg/mosaico.jpg
TinyURL for this: http://tinyurl.com/dr26x
That's right: it's the church of San Frediano (a.k.a. St. Frigidian).
And here's Z. herself, inside:
http://www.itclucca.lu.it/interessanti/luccacittadarte/2id/S.FREDIA/Zita6.jpg
TinyURL for this: http://tinyurl.com/bx2x3
So, if you know where's she's really from, there's even a chance that
you might visit her. And perhaps buy flowers in her honor:
http://www.luccatourist.it/notizie.asp?id=105
And, if nineteenth-century medievalism is an interest, you could read
this version by Francesca Alexander (with illustrations by her and
comments by John
Ruskin) of an early modern ballad of Santa Zita:
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/ukraine/324/zita.html
Best,
John Dillon
On Tuesday, April 26, 2005, at 6:17 pm, Phyllis wrote:
> Today (27. April) is the feast day of:
> Zita (d. 1278) Zita was born to poor people of Monte Sagrati (Italy)
> She became a servant in a wool-dealer's household, specializing in
> diligence, asceticism, and general holiness. She continued as a
> servant for the family for c. 48 years, until her death, but had a
> surprisingly public role during that time, working on behalf of the
> poor and criminals and working a lot of miracles. Z. was canonized
> in 1696---she's the patron saint of servants.
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Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:35:31 -0700
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Marjorie Greene <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Metairie!
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
As one born in New Orleans and raised in Metairie, I collapsed into peals of
laughter at John's " It
is as though a saint of nineteenth-century New Orleans (I speak
hypothetically, of course) had been identified geographically only as
having been born in Metairie (USA)." I confess I never, ever expected
Metairie to be mentioned on this list.
I know, nothing medieval (or religious) about this message... Pardon the
digression.
MG
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Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 00:45:20 -0400
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Mariano Paniello <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Metairie!
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[private reply]
Where y'at! I too grew up in Orleans, Metairie and Kenner, and still have
tons of relatives in all three. What a hoot! I hope you don't mind my
intruding on you like this, but I jumped a little when I saw Metairie in
your e-mail's heading.
Take care,
MP
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Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 00:46:50 -0400
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mariano Paniello <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Metairie!
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Oops! D'oh! Sorry to have sent my previous post to the list.
Contritely,
MP
>From: Mariano Paniello <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval
religious culture <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [M-R] Metairie!
>Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 00:45:20 -0400
>
>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>culture
>
>[private reply]
>
>Where y'at! I too grew up in Orleans, Metairie and Kenner, and still
>have
>tons of relatives in all three. What a hoot! I hope you don't mind
>my
>intruding on you like this, but I jumped a little when I saw
>Metairie in
>your e-mail's heading.
>
>Take care,
>
>MP
>
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Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:06:37 +1000
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Peter McDonald <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Recent titles
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I also would like to add a note of appreciation.
Peter McDonald
-----Original Message-----
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Thomas
Izbicki
Sent: Tuesday, 26 April 2005 11:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] Recent titles
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Many thanks. It is good to be appreciated.
Tom Izbicki
Thomas Izbicki
Collection Development Coordinator
Eisenhower Library
Johns Hopkins
Baltimore, MD 21218
(410)516-7173
fax (410)516-8399
>>> [log in to unmask] 04/26/05 9:29 AM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
culture
Dear Dr. Izbicki,
I just wanted you to know that I find your listing of recent
publications to be really useful. I always scroll through them and
occasionally find something that I hadn't seen elsewhere. Just last week
I saw a book on the formation of the Hebrew Bible, published by Dove
books, that I might not have discovered for years. Since as educators
we so seldom hear about the usefulness of the things we do, I thought I
would let you know that your work is appreciated!
Sincerely,
Kim Rivers
Kimberly Rivers Department of History
Associate Professor University of Wisconsin-Oshkosh
(920) 424-2451 [log in to unmask]
----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:25 am
Subject: [M-R] Recent titles
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
> 42] The inquisition of Francisca : a sixteenth-century visionary on
> trial / Francisca de los Apostoles ; edited and translated by
Gillian
> T.W. Ahlgren. (The other voice in early modern Europe. (Cloth ed.))
> U of
> Chicago Pr. 0226142221. R6-491924. 2005. US. USD45.00
>
> [50] Mulder-Bakker, Anneke B. Lives of the anchoresses : the rise of
> the urban recluse in medieval Europe / Anneke B. Mulder-Bakker ;
> translated by Myra Heerspink Scholz. (Middle Ages series) Univ
> Pennsylvania Pr. 0812238524. R4-493416. 2005. US. USD55.00
>
> [52] Page, Sophie. Magic in medieval manuscripts / Sophie Page.
> Br.Lib.Mrkt.Pub/Extenza Turpin, UK. 0712348131. L8-687635. 2004.
> UK. Paper.
> GBP7.95
>
> [53] The making of Christian communities in late antiquity and the
> middle ages / (edited by) Mark Williams. Anthem Press, UK/Central
> Bks..1898855773. L9-684984. 2005. UK. Paper. GBP18.95
>
> [54] Medieval religion : new approaches / edited by Constance
Hoffman
> Berman. (Rewriting histories) Routledge. 0415316863. L6-685739.
2005.
> UK. GBP60.00
>
> [55] Cross, Richard. The metaphysics of the Incarnation : Thomas
> Aquinas to Duns Scotus Oxford U.P.. 0199281084. B3-733251. 2005. UK.
> Paper. GBP22.50
>
> [56] Bellenger, Dominic Aidan. The mitre & the crown : a history of
> theArchbiships of Canterbury / Dominic Aidan Bellenger & Stella
> Fletcher.Sutton Publ.Ltd.. 0750931213. L3-685508. 2005. UK. GBP20.00
>
> [59] Bhatnagar, R. S. Mystical vision and thought in medieval Sufism
> (Studies in Asian thought & religion, v.29) Edwin Mellen Pr.
> 0773462279.V6-K76222. 2005. US. USD109.95
>
> [60] The occult in Medieval Europe, 500-1500 : a documentary
> history /
> edited and translated by P.G. Maxwell-Stuart. Palgrave Macmillan.
> 1403902909. R2-490260. 2005. US. USD72.00
>
> [62] Nasir al-Din Tusi. Paradise of submission : a medieval
> treatise on
> Ismaili thought (Ismaili texts and translations series, 5)
1860644368.
> B1-521869. 2005. UK. GBP35.00
>
> [63] Dreyer, Elizabeth, 1945- Passionate spirituality : Hildegard of
> Bingen and Hadewijch of Brabant / Elizabeth A. Dreyer. Paulist.
> 0809143046. R3-489584. 2005. US. Paper. USD16.95
> [ Detail | Editions | TOC | Email | Request | Library notes ]
>
> [64] Peter Martyr Vermigli and the European Reformations : semper
> reformanda / edited by Frank A. James III. (Studies in the history
of
> Christian traditions, v.115) Brill Academic Pubs. 9004139141. R6-
> 494645.2004. US. USD147.00
>
> [66] Reff, Daniel T., 1949- Plagues, priests, and demons : sacred
> narratives and the rise of Christianity in the Old World and the
> New /
> Daniel T. Reff. Cambridge U.P.. 0521840783. L0-681968. 2005. UK.
> GBP40.00
> [ Detail | Editions | TOC | Email | Request | Library notes ]
>
> [70] Claussen, M. A. (Martin A.) The reform of the Frankish church :
> Chrodegang of Metz and the Regula canonicorum in the eighth century
/
> M.A. Claussen (Cambridge studies in medieval life and thought.
Fourth
> series, 61) Cambridge U.P.. 0521839319. L9-680756. 2004. UK.
GBP48.00
>
> [75] Hodgson, Marshall G. S. The secret order of assassins : the
> struggle of the early Nizari Ismailis against the Islamic world /
> Marshall G.S. Hodgson. Univ Pennsylvania Pr. 0812219163. R2-493496.
> 2005. US. Paper. USD24.95
>
> [77] The spiritual conversion of the Americas / edited by James
> Muldoon. U Pr of Florida. 0813027713. R7-495771. 2004. US. USD65.00
>
> [79] Women's space : patronage, place, and gender in the medieval
> church / edited by Virginia Chieffo Raguin and Sarah Stanbury. (SUNY
> Series in medieval studies) State U of N Y Pr. 0791463656.
R2-495524.
> 2005. US. USD85.00
>
> [81] Ghazzali, 1058-1111. Worship in Islam : being a translation,
with
> commentary and introduction, of al-Ghazzali's Book of the Ihya on
the
> worship / by the Rev. Edwin Elliot Calverley. Gorgias Press, US.
> 1593331118. R8-487905. 2004. US. USD55.00
>
> Tom Izbicki
>
> Thomas Izbicki
> Collection Development Coordinator
> Eisenhower Library
> Johns Hopkins
> Baltimore, MD 21218
> (410)516-7173
> fax (410)516-8399
>
>
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Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:44:45 -0500
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Christopher Crockett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: saints of the day 27. April
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From: John Dillon <[log in to unmask]>
> And here are a couple of close-ups of its famous mosaic:
> http://www.provincia.asti.it/edu/smgoria/sfrediano.htm
> http://web.genie.it/utenti/e/enigmagalgano/Immagini/jpeg/mosaico.jpg
> TinyURL for this: http://tinyurl.com/dr26x
now, i'm i having yet another Senior Moment, or did we not see this mosia=
c
just a few short weeks ago, on another feast day for another saint?
or has an whole year passed, while i've been napping?
i hate it when that happens.
how many suchlike large, exterior mosiacs survive in Italy?
i didn't know that there was a single one before that previous mention, l=
ast
week or last year, whenever it was.
c
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but
they've always worked for me."
-- Hunter S. Thompson
=
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Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:12:18 +0100
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Catherine.Lawless" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Medieval Italy
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Dear all
We hope this conference is of interest to you, and we would be very grateful
if you could circulate it in your departments.
best
Catherine
Travel And Movement in Medieval Italy, c.500-1500
University of Limerick, 10 -11 June 2005
_ Final Call for papers___
* A symposium hosted by the Centre for Historical Research, Department of
History, University of Limerick in collaboration with the Department of
Medieval History, Trinity College Dublin and the School of History,
University College Dublin.
* Two days of inter-disciplinary discussion and debate with contributions
from leading European and American scholars.
Keynote Speaker:
Francis Ames-Lewis (London)
Other speakers include:
William Caferro (Vanderbilt), Jonathan Couser (Notre Dame), William R Day Jr
(Cambridge), Ignazio del Punta, Eunice D Howe (Los Angelos), Elod Nemerkenyi
( Budapest) , Jennifer Petrie, (Dublin), Gianluca Raccagni (Cambridge),
Maria Elisa Soldani (Turin), Barbara Wisch (New York)
Respondents:
Sam Cohn (Glasgow), Brenda Bolton (London), George Ferzoco (Leicester)
* Full details of the programme and registration forms can be found on the
conference website: http://boduweb.com/conference_ul/
* Special registration rate for speakers.
* The symposium will be opened by the Italian ambassador to Ireland.
* The papers of the symposium will be published
Further proposals for papers on any topic relevant to the symposium theme
are invited.
A brief abstract should be sent to any of the organisers as soon as possible
in order to be included in the final programme.
The University of Limerick is easily accessible from Shannon Airport
(direct flights from major UK airports) and by rail. University
accommodation will be available to conference delegates.
To submit a proposal for a paper or for further information contact one
of the following:
Dr Catherine Lawless
Department of History
University of Limerick
[log in to unmask]
Professor Christine Meek
Department of Medieval History
Trinity College Dublin
[log in to unmask]
Dr Edward Coleman
School of History
University College Dublin
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:33:23 +0100
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Catherine.Lawless" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Massa Marittima
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Dear all
I have just read an interview with our own George Ferzoco on the Massa
Marittima mural on the online web magazine Three Monkeys, and discovered
that the following:
' His work, The Mural at Massa Marittima was recently recognized with a
prize by the Society for Medieval Feminist Scholarship.'
Bravo, George!
The interview can be accessed at:
http://www.threemonkeysonline.com/index.php
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Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:19:14 +0100
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Catherine Gunn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: recent titles
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I, also, am very grateful for 'recent titles' and have an ever =
increasing list of books that one day . . .=20
In the recent list, however, I noticed that an over-zealous cataloguer =
had made what I think is a small mistake - a book on the Archbishops of =
Canterbury is listed as being by Dominic Aidan Bellinger - I assume this =
is by Dom Aidan Bellinger (OSB) and that someone thought Dom stood for =
Dominic?
Cate
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I, also, am very grateful for 'recent titles' and =
have an ever=20
increasing list of books that one day . . . </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>In the recent list, however, I noticed that an =
over-zealous=20
cataloguer had made what I think is a small mistake - a book on the =
Archbishops=20
of Canterbury is listed as being by Dominic Aidan Bellinger - I assume =
this is=20
by Dom Aidan Bellinger (OSB) and that someone thought Dom stood for=20
Dominic?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Cate</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:09:55 -0700
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Phil Feller <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Clementine Vulgate e-text now available
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
For those of you have have long awaited an on-line or e-text version of
the Clementine Vulgate, one is now available. The home page for the
project is http://vulsearch.sourceforge.net/. From here you can
download download the text in either PDF or lightly-marked-up plain
text, search and read it on-line, or download a program for Windows that
searches and displays the text along with the Douay-Rheims English
translation, and morphological and translation output from William
Whitaker's Words program. Both the text and the program have been
released as open source, under the GPL license.
For years the only available e-text of the Vulgate has been the
Beuron/Stuttgart edition. This originated from a text produced by the
University of Pennsylvania's CCAT, under a license from the German Bible
Society. Although many copies of it exist on the Internet (and on
individual PCs), they are of questionable legality, not to mention
limited usefulness to medievalists. You can read a fuller account of the
nachleben of this text at http://www.le.ac.uk/elh/grj1/linksa.html.
Oh, I have checked to make sure that the text passes Bill East's Gen.
3:20 benchmark: http://vulsearch.sourceforge.net/html/Gn.html#x3_20
Phil Feller
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Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:14:33 -0700
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Phyllis Jestice <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: saints of the day 28. April
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Today (28. April) is the feast day of:
Vitalis (2nd cent.?) Vitalis and his wife Valeria were martyred near
Milan, probably in the reign of Marcus Aurelius. They were brought
into the SS Gervasius and Protasius legend, according to which they
were wealthy citizens of Milan and parents of G and P.
Adalbero of Augsburg (d. 909) Adalbero was a noble German. He
became a monk and served as abbot of Ellswangen and Lorsch before
becoming bishop of Augsburg in c. 887.
Cyril of Turov (d. 1182) The Russian Cyril was the son of a wealthy
family, but he gave up his inheritance and became a monk. That was
too easy, so he went off to a hermitage, but was then made bishop of
Turov. Cyril was well-educated and fluent in Greek and was a leading
proponent of things Greek in the Russian church. He was an orator,
preacher, writer, and also advisor to a Russian prince.
A modern saint: Peter Chanel (d. 1841) The French Pierre Chanel
became a parish priest, joined he Marist order in 1831, and in 1836
set out as a missionary to the New Hebrides. He had some success, to
the annoyance of a local chief, who had PC murdered because of our
saint's influence on his son. PC was canonized in 1954, the first
martyr of Oceania.
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Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:07:10 +0100
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Bill East <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clementine Vulgate e-text now available
In-Reply-To: 6667
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Phil Feller <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Oh, I have checked to make sure that the text passes Bill East's Gen.
3:20 benchmark: http://vulsearch.sourceforge.net/html/Gn.html#x3_20
Phil Feller
My what?
Bill.
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Phil Feller <[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<P><BR><BR>Oh, I have checked to make sure that the text passes Bill East's Gen.<BR>3:20 benchmark: http://vulsearch.sourceforge.net/html/Gn.html#x3_20<BR><BR>Phil Feller<BR><BR>My what?</P>
<P>Bill.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR><DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"></DIV></DIV></DIV><p>Send instant messages to your online friends
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:47:07 +0100
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Colm=E1n_O'_Clabaigh?= <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Dom, Dominic
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
No, it's Dominic. Dom Aidan is Prior of Downside Abbey in Somerset but =
writes as Dominic Aidan Bellenger, Dominic being his baptismal name, =
Aidan his name in religion. It's a very good book incidentally.
Colm=E1n O'Clabaigh OSB
Glenstal Abbey
Ireland
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Catherine Gunn=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: [M-R] recent titles
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and =
culture=20
I, also, am very grateful for 'recent titles' and have an ever =
increasing list of books that one day . . .=20
In the recent list, however, I noticed that an over-zealous cataloguer =
had made what I think is a small mistake - a book on the Archbishops of =
Canterbury is listed as being by Dominic Aidan Bellinger - I assume this =
is by Dom Aidan Bellinger (OSB) and that someone thought Dom stood for =
Dominic?
Cate
********************************************************************** =
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>No, it's Dominic. Dom Aidan is Prior of =
Downside=20
Abbey in Somerset but writes as Dominic Aidan Bellenger, Dominic being =
his=20
baptismal name, Aidan his name in religion. It's a very good book=20
incidentally.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Colm=E1n O'Clabaigh OSB</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Glenstal Abbey</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ireland</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [log in to unmask] =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Catherine=20
Gunn</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
[log in to unmask]
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">MEDIEVAL-RELIGION@JISCMA=
IL.AC.UK</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 27, 2005 =
1:19=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [M-R] recent =
titles</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval =
religion=20
and culture=20
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I, also, am very grateful for 'recent titles' and =
have an=20
ever increasing list of books that one day . . . </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>In the recent list, however, I noticed that an =
over-zealous=20
cataloguer had made what I think is a small mistake - a book on the=20
Archbishops of Canterbury is listed as being by Dominic Aidan =
Bellinger - I=20
assume this is by Dom Aidan Bellinger (OSB) and that someone thought =
Dom stood=20
for Dominic?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
=
size=3D2>Cate</FONT></DIV>***********************************************=
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Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:18:50 +0100
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: John Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clementine Vulgate e-text now available
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Bill East wrote:
> Phil Feller wrote:
>
>> Oh, I have checked to make sure that the text passes Bill East's Gen.
>> 3:20 benchmark: http://vulsearch.sourceforge.net/html/Gn.html#x3_20
>
> My what?
Your test for defective copies of the *Stuttgart* Vulgate. I believe the
additional download of the Stuttgart Vulgate for this system fails the test.
John Briggs
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Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:29:53 +0100
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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From: John Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: saints of the day 28. April
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Phyllis Jestice wrote:
>
> Today (28. April) is the feast day of:
>
> Vitalis
In the Sarum Calendar, a Simple feast with double Invitatory, and three
lessons at Matins.
John Briggs
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Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 03:06:13 -0700
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
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From: Phil Feller <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clementine Vulgate e-text now available
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Bill East wrote:
> Phil Feller wrote:
>
>> Oh, I have checked to make sure that the text passes Bill East's Gen.
>> 3:20 benchmark: http://vulsearch.sourceforge.net/html/Gn.html#x3_20
>
>
> My what?
Back in 1998, in this very forum, Bob Kraft credits you with finding
that Eva is spelled Hava in several places in the electronic version of
the Stuttgart edition, including Gen 3:20. I suppose that I ought to
have called it Kraft's test, because he is the one who actually proposes
using it as a way to spot the Stuttgart text.
So far as I can tell, this new text is indeed the Clementine edition.
Phil Feller
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:34:12 +0100
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: John Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clementine Vulgate e-text now available
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Phil Feller wrote:
> Bill East wrote:
>> Phil Feller wrote:
>>
>>> Oh, I have checked to make sure that the text passes Bill East's
>>> Gen. 3:20 benchmark:
>>
>> My what?
>
> Back in 1998, in this very forum, Bob Kraft credits you with finding
> that Eva is spelled Hava in several places in the electronic version
> of the Stuttgart edition, including Gen 3:20. I suppose that I ought
> to have called it Kraft's test, because he is the one who actually
> proposes using it as a way to spot the Stuttgart text.
When Robert Boyle first published Boyle's Law, he called it "Mr Towneley's
Hypothesis" :-)
> So far as I can tell, this new text is indeed the Clementine edition.
I think you mean the "Clementine text". And I am not sure to what extent
the substantives (rather than the accidentals) conform to early editions.
Unfortunately, this text was mostly taken from a late (1946) edition. It
has the "re-classicised" spelling (e.g. 'caelum' rather than 'coelum',
although it still has 'quotidianum' rather than the 'cotidianum' of the Nova
Vulgata and the Stuttgart Vulgate.) The accompanying 'Douay-Rheims'
translation is a (late) version of Challoner's revision rather than the
original Douai-Rheims text, and the 'Stuttgart Vulgate' text is the usual
defective text.
John Briggs
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Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 04:26:37 -0700
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From: Phil Feller <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clementine Vulgate e-text now available
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John Briggs wrote:
> I think you mean the "Clementine text". And I am not sure to what extent
> the substantives (rather than the accidentals) conform to early editions.
> Unfortunately, this text was mostly taken from a late (1946) edition. It
> has the "re-classicised" spelling (e.g. 'caelum' rather than 'coelum',
> although it still has 'quotidianum' rather than the 'cotidianum' of
> the Nova
> Vulgata and the Stuttgart Vulgate.) The accompanying 'Douay-Rheims'
> translation is a (late) version of Challoner's revision rather than the
> original Douai-Rheims text, and the 'Stuttgart Vulgate' text is the usual
> defective text.
How unfortunate. I had assumed that the person responsible was mistaken
in his claim that it was the 1598 edition that he presented, but had not
realized how far off it was. I had also wondered about his assertions
regarding the copyright status:
http://vulsearch.sourceforge.net/text.html#x5. He seems to be under the
impression that only the introductory and editorial materials of an
edition would have been protected.
Phil Feller
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Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:04:34 +0200
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Subject: Aquinas conference Utrecht December and call for papers
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Divine Immanence and Transcendence in the Thought of Thomas Aquinas
Utrecht, the Netherlands, Dec. 15-17, 2005
Keynote speakers: Gregory Rocca (Berkeley), Bruce Marshall (Dallas), =
Rudi te Velde (Amsterdam)
Third international conference organized by the Thomas Institute at =
Utrecht.
Call for papers: deadline June 1, 2005.
More information: www.thomasinstituut.org
Harm Goris=20
Lecturer in systematic theology=20
Katholieke Theologische Universiteit=20
Utrecht, The Netherlands=20
tel: +31-30-253 3129=20
fax: +31-30-253 3665=20
Visit the site of the Thomas Institute Utrecht =
:http://www.thomasinstituut.org/ The best Aquinas site on the Web!=20
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<P><B><FONT FACE=3D"Courier New">Divine Immanence and Transcendence in =
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<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Utrecht, the Netherlands, Dec. =
15-17, 2005</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Keynote speakers: Gregory Rocca =
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Third international conference =
organized by the Thomas Institute at Utrecht.</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Call for papers: deadline June 1, =
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3665</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Times New Roman"> </FONT>
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/A></FONT></U><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial"></FONT> =
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Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 16:35:56 +0100
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From: Catherine Gunn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: "the" Vulgate
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Dear colleagues
since I came to medieval studies by a rather circuitous route, and am =
largely self-taught, some things remain a mystery to me - including what =
scholars mean when they refer to 'the Vulgate'. I have realised that. =
given the textual history of such things there can be no definitive, =
single version of Jerome's translation - but what should I be looking =
for in a library if I want a Latin bible that is as close to possible to =
that used in the 13th century? and what about Douay-Rheims translations =
- they seem to be another minefield.
with thanks, Cate
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Dear colleagues</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>since I came to medieval studies by a rather =
circuitous route,=20
and am largely self-taught, some things remain a mystery to me - =
including what=20
scholars mean when they refer to 'the Vulgate'. I have realised =
that.=20
given the textual history of such things there can be no =
definitive, single=20
version of Jerome's translation - but what should I be looking for in a =
library=20
if I want a Latin bible that is as close to possible to that used in the =
13th=20
century? and what about Douay-Rheims translations - they seem to =
be=20
another minefield.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>with thanks, Cate</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:09:49 -0400
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From: Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: recent titles
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
The mitre & the crown :
a history of the archbishops of Canterbury /
Dominic Aidan Bellenger; Stella Fletcher
2005
English Book xx, 236 p., [16] p. of plates : ill. ; 24 cm.
Stroud, U.K. : Sutton, ; ISBN: 0750931213 (hbk.)
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Title: The mitre & the crown :
a history of the archbishops of Canterbury /
Author(s): Bellenger, Dominic Aidan. ; Fletcher, Stella.
Publication: Stroud, U.K. : Sutton,
Year: 2005
Description: xx, 236 p., [16] p. of plates : ill. ; 24 cm.
Language: English
Standard No: ISBN: 0750931213 (hbk.); National Library: 013069321
SUBJECT(S)
Descriptor: Bishops -- England -- History.
Named Corp: Church of England. Diocese of Canterbury. Archbishop --
History.
Note(s): Includes bibliographical references (p. [209]-221) and
index.
Class Descriptors: LC: BX5198; Dewey: 283.092242
Other Titles: Mitre and the crown
Responsibility: Dominic Aidan Bellenger & Stella Fletcher.
Material Type: Biography (bio)
Document Type: Book
Entry: 20041020
Update: 20050328
Accession No: OCLC: 57354319
Database: WorldCat
Thomas Izbicki
Collection Development Coordinator
Eisenhower Library
Johns Hopkins
Baltimore, MD 21218
(410)516-7173
fax (410)516-8399
>>> [log in to unmask] 04/27/05 8:19 AM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
culture
I, also, am very grateful for 'recent titles' and have an ever
increasing list of books that one day . . .
In the recent list, however, I noticed that an over-zealous cataloguer
had made what I think is a small mistake - a book on the Archbishops of
Canterbury is listed as being by Dominic Aidan Bellinger - I assume this
is by Dom Aidan Bellinger (OSB) and that someone thought Dom stood for
Dominic?
Cate
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Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:47:23 -0400
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "the" Vulgate
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Although I use the Douai Rheims, I have occasionally found it different
from the Latin in the texts I study.
Tom Izbicki
Thomas Izbicki
Collection Development Coordinator
Eisenhower Library
Johns Hopkins
Baltimore, MD 21218
(410)516-7173
fax (410)516-8399
>>> [log in to unmask] 04/28/05 11:35 AM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
culture
Dear colleagues
since I came to medieval studies by a rather circuitous route, and am
largely self-taught, some things remain a mystery to me - including what
scholars mean when they refer to 'the Vulgate'. I have realised that.
given the textual history of such things there can be no definitive,
single version of Jerome's translation - but what should I be looking
for in a library if I want a Latin bible that is as close to possible to
that used in the 13th century? and what about Douay-Rheims translations
- they seem to be another minefield.
with thanks, Cate
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Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:48:35 +0100
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From: Bill East <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Clementine Vulgate e-text now available
In-Reply-To: 6667
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Back in 1998, in this very forum, Bob Kraft credits you with finding
that Eva is spelled Hava in several places in the electronic version of
the Stuttgart edition, including Gen 3:20. I suppose that I ought to
have called it Kraft's test, because he is the one who actually proposes
using it as a way to spot the Stuttgart text.
Ah, back in 1998. I was young then.
Bill.
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<DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<P><BR><BR><BR>Back in 1998, in this very forum, Bob Kraft credits you with finding<BR>that Eva is spelled Hava in several places in the electronic version of<BR>the Stuttgart edition, including Gen 3:20. I suppose that I ought to<BR>have called it Kraft's test, because he is the one who actually proposes<BR>using it as a way to spot the Stuttgart text.<BR><BR>Ah, back in 1998. I was young then. </P>
<P>Bill.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR><DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"></DIV></DIV></DIV><p>Send instant messages to your online friends
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Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 16:44:31 -0500
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From: John Dillon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: saints of the day 28. April
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Today (28. April) is also the feast day of:
Pamphilus (7th century, perhaps). According to apparently factitious local
tradition, today's less well known saint from the Regno was bishop of
Valva (today's diocese of Sulmona and Valva) during a time of dissension
between Catholics and Arians. His seat was in Corfinium (the area's
chief city in Roman times) and he is said to have incurred papal
suspicion for his practice of celebrating Sunday mass at midnight and of
devoting the time at daybreak to providing a large meal for the poor.
An investigation confirmed his doctrinal orthodoxy and his pastoral
practices subsequently received papal approval. After his death his
body was removed to Sulmo (today's Sulmona), where -- according to one
branch of the tradition -- he had also been born.
Corfinium suffered badly from Muslim raids in the ninth century and from
Magyar raids in the tenth; by the eleventh century, its ancient
cathedral church of St. Pelinus had come to occupy a semi-rural
location. Sulmona, on the other hand, was now the diocese's chief city
and it had had a church dedicated to a saint Pamphilus since at least
1042. It would seem that Pamphilus' Vita (BHL 6418; thought to have
been cobbled together from those of other regional saints and perhaps
also from that of St. Aldhelm) was initially created sometime in the
eleventh century, in order to reinforce Sulmona's prominence within the
diocese of Valva. P.'s cult spread widely in the central Middle Ages in
an area ranging from today's Abruzzo down to northern Puglia; Spoltore
(PE), for example, received its church dedicated to him in the year
1070. In 1075 abbot Transmundus of San Clemente a Casauria, who was
also bishop of Valva, undertook to rebuild P.'s church at Sulmona as
well as that of St. Pelinus, maintaining both of them as cathedrals of
the one diocese (as they are today). By the end of the Middle Ages P.'s
cult had also established itself in the Rhine valley, from Basel all the
way to Utrecht.
Sulmona's cathedral of San Panfilo has been rebuilt several times but still
retains some of its medieval character. An aerial view is here:
http://www.pmsulmona.it/sap1.jpg
And views of the facade and of its "gothic" main portal are here:
http://www.caisulmona.it/images/Sulmona/sanpanfilo.htm
There's an English-language account of the building here:
http://www.tuttoabruzzo.it/english/religious_arch_sanpanfilo.html
And a much more detailed account (with good photographs of "romanesque"
elements) in Italian is here:
http://www.liceoscientificosulmona.it/ROMANICO-ABRUZZESE/Schede-edifici/S_PANFILO-A-SULMONA/S_PANFILO.htm
TinyURL for this: http://tinyurl.com/cauvt
P.'s resting place in the cathedral, though, is a piece of
seventeenth-century elegance:
http://www.liceoscientificosulmona.it/ROMANICO-ABRUZZESE/Schede-edifici/S_PANFILO-A-SULMONA/image015.jpg
TinyURL for this: http://tinyurl.com/a32mb
Best,
John Dillon
(last year's post, revised)
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Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:25:05 -0700
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Phyllis Jestice <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: saints of the day 29. April
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Today (29. April) is the feast day of:
The Abbots of Cluny (Berno, Odo, Mayeul, Odilo, Hugh, Aymardus, and
Peter the Venerable) Today is the corporate feast day of all the
great and saintly early abbots of Cluny.
Robert of Molesmes (d. 1110) Oddly, it's also the feast day of
Robert, founder of Citeaux. Robert was a noble of Champagne. He
became a monk at Moutier-la-Celle and soon displayed reforming
tendencies when appointed abbot of St. Michael of Tonnere. He then
became superior of a group of hermits, and founded Molesmes with them
in 1075. But R. got discouraged with that community, so he left with
several followers to found a new monastery at Citeaux in 1098.
Robert himself was ordered back to Molesmes the next year, and
finally succeeded in reforming the place. R. was canonized in 1222.
Peter Martyr (d. 1252) Peter was a native of Verona, the son of
Cathars or Waldensians (one of my saints' books says "Waldensian
dualist heretics"(!)). He studied at the University of Bologna and
became a Dominican. Peter became a famous preacher, and in c. 1234
was appointed inquisitor for northern Italy. He was very zealous in
his preaching against all the Cathars there---so zealous that two
Cathars ambushed and murdered him. P. was canonized the very next
year. He is one of the very few saints formally canonized who was
demoted to local/particular calendary standing in the great calendar
purge of 1969.
Catherine of Siena (d. 1380) Catherine was the daughter of a dyer,
the youngest of 25 children. She started her life as a mystic at the
age of 6. When she grew up she refused to marry and became a
Dominican tertiary, living in her parents' home. As probably
everyone on the list knows, C. became an extremely famous mystic, was
recognized by many as a living saint, played a significant role as
spiritual counsellor, and was a very persuasive peacemaker who even
talked Pope Gregory XI into returning from Avignon to Rome. C. was
canonized in 1461, named patron of Italy in 1939, and was declared a
doctor of the church in 1970.
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 00:41:51 +0100
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From: John Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: saints of the day 29. April
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Phyllis Jestice wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
> Today (29. April) is the feast day of:
The Translation of St Edmund the Martyr. There is no Sarum Mass or Office,
but in Norwich Diocese it is a Feast with Rulers, with three lessons at
Matins.
John Briggs
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:03:41 +1200
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Subject: Fw: [M-R] "the" Vulgate
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----- Original Message -----=20
From: Catherine Gunn=20
<<since I came to medieval studies by a rather circuitous route, and am =
largely self-taught, some things remain a mystery to me - including what =
scholars mean when they refer to 'the Vulgate'.>>
I have this archived on my machine, something I wrote for an Irish =
e-mail group. Forgive all the extraneous material but it is too busy a =
day (Good Friday for us Orthodox) to edit it.
Fr Ambrose
Saint Jerome began his work of translating the Bible into Latin around =
380
AD while still in Rome. He was then working from the Septuagint and from
fragments of the Septuagint already translated into Latin. We know this
because there is a letter of his to Pope Damasus who had given him this
translation work:
"You (Damasus) urge me to make a new work out of an old one, and to
sit in judgement on the copies of the Scriptures (=3D the Greek =
Septuagint)
now scattered throughout the whole world; and since they differ from one
another, to decide which of them agree with the true reading of the =
Greek."
Jerome also set about learning Hebrew, and when he arrived in Bethlehem =
(in
391AD) he began to compare the Septuagint with the Hebrew. We know that =
he
started work there on the Book of Job, using only the Septuagint, but =
when
he came to the 150 Psalms, his Hebrew was good enough for him to make a
fresh translation directly from the Hebrew Psalter.
Working with both the Greek Septuagint and the Hebrew, he completed his
translation in 404 AD. Of course, soon after in 410, the Roman Empire =
was
taken by the Goths (the reason the Roman troops were pulled out of =
Britain
and the British colony was abandoned.) Western Roman civilisation =
dwindled
very quickly and what were once glorious cities in Italy and Gaul became
just marble ruins. The Roman Emperors abandoned Rome and settled in
Ravenna, trying to stay out of the reach of the Goths. Ravenna became =
the
centre of the little that remained of the Western Roman Empire. The =
Bishop
of Rome of course stayed with his see in Rome. But in 476 the Goth =
armies
took Ravenna also and the devastation was complete.
It was sixty years later in 540 that the Eastern Emperor in =
Constantinople
led a successful campaign in Italy and routed the Goths. One of the
conquered was a Cassiodorus, who had been a high ranking minister and a
Christian (the Goths, by the way, had become Christian, but of the Arian
variety, denying the divinity of Christ.)
With the defeat of his own Gothic world, Cassiodorus moved to Calabria =
in
southern Italy, where he created a monastery at Vivarium. Cassiodorus =
was a
conservator 'par excellence,' and he had an impressive collection of =
civil
documents from his days as a Gothic bureaucrat and also of many Bible =
texts
and fragments. His most important achievement was the collection and the
collation of the Latin Vulgate of Jerome, which had been inaccurately =
copied
and fragmented and its integrity threatened during the Gothic time of =
rule.
At Vivarium, Cassiodorus and his monks compiled what became the =
canonical
"Jerome Vulgate." This work was completed, carefully and accurately, in
about 560 AD, and Cassiodorus' version of the Vulgate became THE Latin =
Bible
in Western Europe for centuries and centuries thereafter.
The Irish Church and the Reception of the Bible:::
OK, at this stage I am moving out of the history that I know and =
starting to
surmise. Since Jerome's original Vulgate was completed in 404 AD, the =
Irish
Church obviously had no copies of it until that year at the *very* =
earliest.
Prior to that, they would have had only the fragments of the Greek
Septuagint, translated into Latin, which were circulating in the Latin
speaking world of Italy. Of course, for those able to read Greek, the
entire Old Testament Septuagint would have been available.
My guess would be that they learnt their scripture using assorted
collections of biblical books....some would have been the older =
Septuagint
versions (but in Latin translation) and some would have been from =
Jerome's
Vulgate. And of course when I write "they" it refers to monks in
monasteries, since nobody else had the means of copying or acquiring =
books
of the Bible. This became possible only with the printing press much =
much
later (You know, this would have made it very difficult to be a =
Protestant
in those early centuries!! Absolutely no access to the written word of
Scripture for the man in the pew!)
But if we are asking when it became possible for the Irish to acquire a
whole complete and entire Bible, complete, that is in one huge book as =
we
think of Bibles today, it was not until Cassiodorus had finished his =
work in
560...at the very very earliest. His version of Jerome's Vulgate became =
the
legendary one-volume Bible which became known as the 'Codex Grandior,' =
the
West's standard Latin Vulgate.
These thoughts about the Irish Church's knowledge and reception of the =
Bible
are my own. I would be very happy to sit at the feet of someone with =
real
knowledge and learn exactly how it occurred. Please don't be shy to come =
in
and contribute.
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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
[log in to unmask]>Catherine=20
Gunn</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B></B> </DIV>
<DIV><<<FONT size=3D2>since I came to medieval studies by a rather =
circuitous route, and am largely self-taught, some things remain a =
mystery to me=20
- including what scholars mean when they refer to 'the=20
Vulgate'.>></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I have this archived on my machine, something I =
wrote for an=20
Irish e-mail group. Forgive all the extraneous material but it is =
too busy=20
a day (Good Friday for us Orthodox) to edit it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Fr Ambrose</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT>Saint Jerome began his work of =
translating=20
the Bible into Latin around 380<BR>AD while still in Rome. He was then =
working=20
from the Septuagint and from<BR>fragments of the Septuagint already =
translated=20
into Latin. We know this<BR>because there is a letter of his to Pope =
Damasus who=20
had given him this<BR>translation work:<BR><BR>"You (Damasus) urge me to =
make a=20
new work out of an old one, and to<BR>sit in judgement on the copies of =
the=20
Scriptures (=3D the Greek Septuagint)<BR>now scattered throughout the =
whole world;=20
and since they differ from one<BR>another, to decide which of them agree =
with=20
the true reading of the Greek."<BR><BR>Jerome also set about learning =
Hebrew,=20
and when he arrived in Bethlehem (in<BR>391AD) he began to compare the=20
Septuagint with the Hebrew. We know that he<BR>started work there on the =
Book of=20
Job, using only the Septuagint, but when<BR>he came to the 150 Psalms, =
his=20
Hebrew was good enough for him to make a<BR>fresh translation directly =
from the=20
Hebrew Psalter.<BR><BR>Working with both the Greek Septuagint and the =
Hebrew, he=20
completed his<BR>translation in 404 AD. Of course, soon after in 410, =
the Roman=20
Empire was<BR>taken by the Goths (the reason the Roman troops were =
pulled out of=20
Britain<BR>and the British colony was abandoned.) Western Roman =
civilisation=20
dwindled<BR>very quickly and what were once glorious cities in Italy and =
Gaul=20
became<BR>just marble ruins. The Roman Emperors abandoned Rome and =
settled=20
in<BR>Ravenna, trying to stay out of the reach of the Goths. Ravenna =
became=20
the<BR>centre of the little that remained of the Western Roman Empire. =
The=20
Bishop<BR>of Rome of course stayed with his see in Rome. But in 476 the =
Goth=20
armies<BR>took Ravenna also and the devastation was complete.<BR><BR>It =
was=20
sixty years later in 540 that the Eastern Emperor in =
Constantinople<BR>led a=20
successful campaign in Italy and routed the Goths. One of =
the<BR>conquered was a=20
Cassiodorus, who had been a high ranking minister and a<BR>Christian =
(the Goths,=20
by the way, had become Christian, but of the Arian<BR>variety, denying =
the=20
divinity of Christ.)<BR><BR>With the defeat of his own Gothic world, =
Cassiodorus=20
moved to Calabria in<BR>southern Italy, where he created a monastery at=20
Vivarium. Cassiodorus was a<BR>conservator 'par excellence,' and he had =
an=20
impressive collection of civil<BR>documents from his days as a Gothic =
bureaucrat=20
and also of many Bible texts<BR>and fragments. His most important =
achievement=20
was the collection and the<BR>collation of the Latin Vulgate of Jerome, =
which=20
had been inaccurately copied<BR>and fragmented and its integrity =
threatened=20
during the Gothic time of rule.<BR><BR>At Vivarium, Cassiodorus and his =
monks=20
compiled what became the canonical<BR>"Jerome Vulgate." This work was =
completed,=20
carefully and accurately, in<BR>about 560 AD, and Cassiodorus' version =
of the=20
Vulgate became THE Latin Bible<BR>in Western Europe for centuries and =
centuries=20
thereafter.<BR><BR>The Irish Church and the Reception of the =
Bible:::<BR>OK, at=20
this stage I am moving out of the history that I know and starting=20
to<BR>surmise. Since Jerome's original Vulgate was completed in 404 AD, =
the=20
Irish<BR>Church obviously had no copies of it until that year at the =
*very*=20
earliest.<BR>Prior to that, they would have had only the fragments of =
the=20
Greek<BR>Septuagint, translated into Latin, which were circulating in =
the=20
Latin<BR>speaking world of Italy. Of course, for those able to read =
Greek,=20
the<BR>entire Old Testament Septuagint would have been =
available.<BR><BR>My=20
guess would be that they learnt their scripture using =
assorted<BR>collections of=20
biblical books....some would have been the older Septuagint<BR>versions =
(but in=20
Latin translation) and some would have been from Jerome's<BR>Vulgate. =
And of=20
course when I write "they" it refers to monks in<BR>monasteries, since =
nobody=20
else had the means of copying or acquiring books<BR>of the Bible. This =
became=20
possible only with the printing press much much<BR>later (You know, this =
would=20
have made it very difficult to be a Protestant<BR>in those early =
centuries!!=20
Absolutely no access to the written word of<BR>Scripture for the man in =
the=20
pew!)<BR><BR>But if we are asking when it became possible for the Irish =
to=20
acquire a<BR>whole complete and entire Bible, complete, that is in one =
huge book=20
as we<BR>think of Bibles today, it was not until Cassiodorus had =
finished his=20
work in<BR>560...at the very very earliest. His version of Jerome's =
Vulgate=20
became the<BR>legendary one-volume Bible which became known as the =
'Codex=20
Grandior,' the<BR>West's standard Latin Vulgate.<BR><BR>These thoughts =
about the=20
Irish Church's knowledge and reception of the Bible<BR>are my own. I =
would be=20
very happy to sit at the feet of someone with real<BR>knowledge and =
learn=20
exactly how it occurred. Please don't be shy to come in<BR>and=20
contribute.</TT></FONT></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:02:02 -0500
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: John Dillon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: saints of the day 29. April
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Today (29. April) is also the feast day of:
Severus, bp. of Naples (d. 409). Bishop of the Parthenopean city from
363 to 409, S. enjoyed the friendship of Ambrose of Milan and the esteem
of Q. Aurelius Symmachus. The early catalog of the city's bishops
credits him with the erection of four basilicas, one of which is today's
rebuilt San Giorgio Maggiore. He is now also usually credited with the
construction of western Christianity's oldest surviving baptistry,
Naples' San Giovanni in Fonte (for fairly obvious reasons, this is by no
means the only baptistery so named), though in the later Middle Ages the
credit went instead to Constantine the Great. This monument adjoins the
early Christian basilica of Santa Restituta (part of the late medieval
and modern cathedral of Naples) and is well worth a visit. The perhaps
not entirely fluent English-language version of the cathedral's website
has a section on the baptistery here:
http://www.duomodinapoli.com/
(click on "Baptistery" in the menu on the top).
This has a good slide show of the (restored) mosaics reached by clicking on
the arrows in the right-hand frame.
Severus also constructed a burial church at Naples' catacombs and housed
here the relics of Sts. Gervasius and Protasius sent to him by Ambrose;
frescoed remains of their arcosolia (and those of other saints mentioned in
early Neapolitan records) were discovered in 1865 under the early modern
church of San Severo alla Sanita'. He too was buried here and here he
remained until some unknown time before the ninth century, when his
remains were transferred to San Giorgio Maggiore, which latter for a
while was also known as San Severo. In the ninth century he was
reinterred in the basilica of San Salvatore (also known as the
Stephania), along with Santa Restituta one of the predecessors of
today's cathedral. In 1310 he underwent a further translation, this
time to the high altar of the present cathedral; the latter was then
still under construction and would not be dedicated until 1314. At this
time S.'s cult was renewed and he became one of the few early saints of
Naples proper to be accorded great prominence in the later Middle Ages.
One has to be reminded sometimes that neither of the city's two most
famous saints, Januarius and Severinus, was actually _from_ Naples.
Severus' later medieval feast day was 30. April. It was changed to
today after the discovery in 1742 of the Marble Calendar of Naples with
its ninth-century record of S.'s commemoration on 29. April. An
English-language translation of the Marble Calendar of Naples is here:
http://www.ucc.ie/milmart/naples.html
Best,
John Dillon
(last year's post, revised)
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:48:52 +0200
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Rochelle Altman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fw: [M-R] "the" Vulgate
In-Reply-To: <044f01c54c57$48f4ddc0$2e00000a@AmbroseMooney>
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:[log in to unmask]>Catherine Gunn
>
><<since I came to medieval studies by a rather circuitous route, and am
>largely self-taught, some things remain a mystery to me - including what
>scholars mean when they refer to 'the Vulgate'.>>
>
Cate,
"The" vulgate dates to the 16th Century; it came into existence after the
Council of Trent in 1546 in response to the great polyglots that were being
published beginning in 1514 that showed the many different versions in many
languages that existed. There were more than 12,000 different versions --
complete or fragmentary -- of Jerome's base text in circulation. The
critical apparatus of the official Vatican diplomatic edition of the
Vulgate will give you an idea of the large number of variants in the
different versions. There is also the Stuttgart diplomatic edition of the
Vulgate, which many scholars prefer. The BHS (Biblia Hebraica
Stutgartensia) also has an extensive apparatus giving Greek, Syriac, Latin,
etc. variant readings for the Hebrew.
Jerome's base text was edited in the 6th century by Cassiodorus. In spite
of there being no such thing as "The" Vulgate before the 1680's, when
scholars refer to "The" vulgate, it is usually the Cassiodorus text of the
6th century that is meant. ("The" LXX did not exist either; still doesn't.)
My special area is the Psalter, which is a bit more complicated. Jerome's
first attempt is what is called "the" Romanum and was created from existing
old Latin texts. His second attempt is what was called the Gallican --
and is referred to as such in OE Psalters. The Gallican is the version we
call "the" Vulgate and, as the name suggests, is an 8th-9th century
redaction. Jerome's last version is called the Hebraicum because it was a
direct translated from a Hebrew source. Jerome's Hebraicum was translated
with the help of Paula and her women.
If you can locate a photo of a leaf from the Canterbury or Eadwine Psalter,
you will see the three Latin versions with their titles as well as two
versions in vernaculars."Gall." in a wide column is in the central
position. An OE version is written interlinearly under "Rom." and an
Anglo-Norman version under "Heb." The Rom. and the Heb. are in two narrow
columns. Each language is written in the script appropriate to its
vernacular. You will also find commentaries -- again in a different script
-- on the leaves.
Hope this helps,
Rochelle
PS: I discuss the Greek, Latin, and OE translations of the Psalms on pp
159-186 of my book.
"A scientist may not distort facts for political reasons, religious
reasons, or any other reason".
Ji Xianlin, Chinese Historian and Sanskrit specialist on the
politicalization of .DNA findings.
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:20:18 +0100
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Bill East <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: saints of the day 29. April - Ember and Rogation Days
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Phyllis Jestice <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Catherine of Siena (d. 1380) Catherine was the daughter of a dyer,
the youngest of 25 children. She started her life as a mystic at the
age of 6. When she grew up she refused to marry and became a
Dominican tertiary, living in her parents' home. As probably
everyone on the list knows, C. became an extremely famous mystic, was
recognized by many as a living saint, played a significant role as
spiritual counsellor, and was a very persuasive peacemaker who even
talked Pope Gregory XI into returning from Avignon to Rome. C. was
canonized in 1461, named patron of Italy in 1939, and was declared a
doctor of the church in 1970.
Respondeo:
Her feast is moreover a Day of Special Prayer for Europe. Such days did not exist in the Middle Ages, but were instituted to replace the old Ember Days and Rogation Days. It may be useful to say a word or two about these days, since I do not remember a discussion of them on the list before now (correct me gently, please, if my memory is faulty).
The Ember Days were four groups of three days, namely the Wednesday, Friday and Saturday after St Lucy (13th Dec), Ash Wednesday (variable), Pentecost (fifty days after Easter) and Holy Cross Day (14th Sept). They were observed as days of fasting and abstinence in the western Church. Their early history and original purpose are obscure - unless you know better. Pope Leo (440-461) preached a series of Embertide sermons, which can be found in Series 2, volume 12 of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Perhaps someone on the list has done work on them. Leo lists the ember days in Sermon 19, II:
""This profitable observance, dearly beloved, is especially laid down for the fasts of the Church which, in accordance with the Holy Spirit's teaching, are so distributed over the whole year that the law of abstinence may be kept before us at all times. Accordingly, we keep the spring fast in Lent, the summer fast at Whitsuntide (Pentecost), the autumn fast in the seventh month (September) and the winter fast in this which is the tenth month (December), knowing that there is nothing unconnected with the divine commands, and that all the elements serve the Word of God to our instruction, so that from the very hinges on which the world turns, as if by four gospels we learn unceasingly what to preach and what to do."
The word 'Ember' (the English term) appears to derive from Old English 'ymbe' meaning 'around' as these days (as Leo explains) are around the four hinges of the year.
Rogation provided a suitable fast before ordinations, which accordingly came to be perfomed at these times, fasting before an ordination being an Apostolic practice (Acts 13:3).
The Rogation Days had a different origin and purpose. The 'Major Rogation' was 25th April, i.e. St Mark's Day, though this seems to be merely coincidental. In fact it was a christianised form of the pagan 'Robigalia' which took the form of processions throught eh cornfields to pray for the preservation of the crops from mildew. The 'Minor Rogations' were kept on the Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday before Ascension Day. These rogations, or days of prayer, derived from the processional litanies ordered by St Mamertus of of Vienne (c. 470) when his diocese was troubled by volcanic eruptions, and spread through Europe. They are found in the Gregorian Sacramentary, and in England were adopted in 747 by the Council of Clovesho.
Bill.
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<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Phyllis Jestice <[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>Catherine of Siena (d. 1380) Catherine was the daughter of a dyer,<BR>the youngest of 25 children. She started her life as a mystic at the<BR>age of 6. When she grew up she refused to marry and became a<BR>Dominican tertiary, living in her parents' home. As probably<BR>everyone on the list knows, C. became an extremely famous mystic, was<BR>recognized by many as a living saint, played a significant role as<BR>spiritual counsellor, and was a very persuasive peacemaker who even<BR>talked Pope Gregory XI into returning from Avignon to Rome. C. was<BR>canonized in 1461, named patron of Italy in 1939, and was declared a<BR>doctor of the church in 1970.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Respondeo:</DIV>
<DIV> Her feast is moreover a Day of Special Prayer for Europe. Such days did not exist in the Middle Ages, but were instituted to replace the old Ember Days and Rogation Days. It may be useful to say a word or two about these days, since I do not remember a discussion of them on the list before now (correct me gently, please, if my memory is faulty).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The Ember Days were four groups of three days, namely the Wednesday, Friday and Saturday after St Lucy (13th Dec), Ash Wednesday (variable), Pentecost (fifty days after Easter) and Holy Cross Day (14th Sept). They were observed as days of fasting and abstinence in the western Church. Their early history and original purpose are obscure - unless you know better. Pope Leo (440-461) preached a series of Embertide sermons, which can be found in Series 2, volume 12 of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Perhaps someone on the list has done work on them. Leo lists the ember days in Sermon 19, II:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>""This profitable observance, dearly beloved, is especially laid down for the fasts of the Church which, in accordance with the Holy Spirit's teaching, are so distributed over the whole year that the law of abstinence may be kept before us at all times. Accordingly, we keep the spring fast in Lent, the summer fast at Whitsuntide (Pentecost), the autumn fast in the seventh month (September) and the winter fast in this which is the tenth month (December), knowing that there is nothing unconnected with the divine commands, and that all the elements serve the Word of God to our instruction, so that from the very hinges on which the world turns, as if by four gospels we learn unceasingly what to preach and what to do."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The word 'Ember' (the English term) appears to derive from Old English 'ymbe' meaning 'around' as these days (as Leo explains) are around the four hinges of the year.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Rogation provided a suitable fast before ordinations, which accordingly came to be perfomed at these times, fasting before an ordination being an Apostolic practice (Acts 13:3).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The Rogation Days had a different origin and purpose. The 'Major Rogation' was 25th April, i.e. St Mark's Day, though this seems to be merely coincidental. In fact it was a christianised form of the pagan 'Robigalia' which took the form of processions throught eh cornfields to pray for the preservation of the crops from mildew. The 'Minor Rogations' were kept on the Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday before Ascension Day. These rogations, or days of prayer, derived from the processional litanies ordered by St Mamertus of of Vienne (c. 470) when his diocese was troubled by volcanic eruptions, and spread through Europe. They are found in the Gregorian Sacramentary, and in England were adopted in 747 by the Council of Clovesho.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Bill.</DIV><BR><BR><DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"></DIV></DIV></DIV><p>Send instant messages to your online friends
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:38:49 +0100
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Bill East <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fw: [M-R] "the" Vulgate
In-Reply-To: <044f01c54c57$48f4ddc0$2e00000a@AmbroseMooney>
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
[log in to unmask] wrote:medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
----- Original Message ----- From: Catherine Gunn
<<since I came to medieval studies by a rather circuitous route, and am largely self-taught, some things remain a mystery to me - including what scholars mean when they refer to 'the Vulgate'.>>
I have this archived on my machine, something I wrote for an Irish e-mail group. Forgive all the extraneous material but it is too busy a day (Good Friday for us Orthodox) to edit it.
Fr Ambrose
Saint Jerome began his work of translating the Bible into Latin around 380
AD while still in Rome.
Respondeo: Fr Ambrose provides us with an admirable history of the Vulgate, but I think more should be said about Jerome's part in it. He mentions that Jerome translated the psalms directly from the Hebrew. So he did, eventually, in the 'Hebraica' a version that never really caught on in popular use. The version usually found in the Vulgate is the Gallican, though if my memory serves me, Amiatinus has the Hebraica.
It may be helpful to quote from Plater and White's 'A Grammar of the Vulgate' p. 5:
"The modern Vulgate is a composite work, only some parts of which are due to Jerome. It may be arranged in six divisions, giving his share in an ascending scale.
(1) OLD LATIN, wholly untouched by Jerome, as merely 'ecclesiastical', not 'canonical': Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, I and II Maccabees, Baruch.
(2) OLD LATIN, slightly revised, but to an extent hard to determine: Acts, Epistles, Apocalypse. Here Jerome left a good deal uncorrected; and in later MSS the Vulgate and the Old Latin texts were often mixed, so that the traces of his recision were still further obscured.
(3) Free and rapid translation from the CHALDEE, as Jerome calls it: Tobias (i.e. Tobit) and Judith. The former book was finished in one day, the latter in a single sitting (lucubatiuncula).
(4) Translation from the SEPTUAGINT: the Psalter. The Psalter included in the Bible is the earlier of 'Gallican'; not the later translation made by Jerome direct from the Hebrew.
(5) Revision and partial correction of the Old Latin from the most ancient Greek MSS available: the Gospels.
(6) Jerome's independent translation from the HEBREW, the first ever made: the Canonical Books of the Old Testament, with the exception of the Psalter.
It will be seen that Jerome's particular contribution was his new and original translation of the Hebrew Scriptures; for the rest of the Bible he was at most a reviser of earlier versions.
I would recommend to our original enquirer the book by Plater and White (Oxford University Press 1926, reprinted 1997); also the Cambridge History of the Bible, vol. 2, especially chapters 4 (on Jerome) and 5 (on the Medieval History of the Latin Vulgate).
Bill.
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<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>[log in to unmask]</I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Catherine Gunn</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B></B> </DIV>
<DIV><<<FONT size=2>since I came to medieval studies by a rather circuitous route, and am largely self-taught, some things remain a mystery to me - including what scholars mean when they refer to 'the Vulgate'.>></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I have this archived on my machine, something I wrote for an Irish e-mail group. Forgive all the extraneous material but it is too busy a day (Good Friday for us Orthodox) to edit it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Fr Ambrose</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT>Saint Jerome began his work of translating the Bible into Latin around 380<BR>AD while still in Rome. </TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT>Respondeo: Fr Ambrose provides us with an admirable history of the Vulgate, but I think more should be said about Jerome's part in it. He mentions that Jerome translated the psalms directly from the Hebrew. So he did, eventually, in the 'Hebraica' a version that never really caught on in popular use. The version usually found in the Vulgate is the Gallican, though if my memory serves me, Amiatinus has the Hebraica.</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT>It may be helpful to quote from Plater and White's 'A Grammar of the Vulgate' p. 5:</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT>"The modern Vulgate is a composite work, only some parts of which are due to Jerome. It may be arranged in six divisions, giving his share in an ascending scale.</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT>(1) OLD LATIN, wholly untouched by Jerome, as merely 'ecclesiastical', not 'canonical': Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, I and II Maccabees, Baruch.</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT>(2) OLD LATIN, slightly revised, but to an extent hard to determine: Acts, Epistles, Apocalypse. Here Jerome left a good deal uncorrected; and in later MSS the Vulgate and the Old Latin texts were often mixed, so that the traces of his recision were still further obscured.</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT>(3) Free and rapid translation from the CHALDEE, as Jerome calls it: Tobias (i.e. Tobit) and Judith. The former book was finished in one day, the latter in a single sitting (lucubatiuncula).</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT>(4) Translation from the SEPTUAGINT: the Psalter. The Psalter included in the Bible is the earlier of 'Gallican'; not the later translation made by Jerome direct from the Hebrew.</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT>(5) Revision and partial correction of the Old Latin from the most ancient Greek MSS available: the Gospels.</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT>(6) Jerome's independent translation from the HEBREW, the first ever made: the Canonical Books of the Old Testament, with the exception of the Psalter.</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT>It will be seen that Jerome's particular contribution was his new and original translation of the Hebrew Scriptures; for the rest of the Bible he was at most a reviser of earlier versions.</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT>I would recommend to our original enquirer the book by Plater and White (Oxford University Press 1926, reprinted 1997); also the Cambridge History of the Bible, vol. 2, especially chapters 4 (on Jerome) and 5 (on the Medieval History of the Latin Vulgate).</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua"><TT>Bill.</TT></FONT></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR><DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"></DIV></DIV></DIV><p>Send instant messages to your online friends
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:42:15 +0000
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Vadim Prozorov <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fw: [M-R] "the" Vulgate
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
The Old Latin Gospels. A Study of Their Texts and Language (OUP, 2000) by
Philip H. Burton can also be useful
(www.oxfordscholarship.com\oso\private\content\religion\0198269889).
vp
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:02:08 +0100
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Dr Rosemary Hayes <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fw: [M-R] "the" Vulgate
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
My apologies if this takes us back to the start of the discussion, but =
which of the on-line texts would the experts recommend for those of us =
who are just trying to identify snippets (for example: 'ante omnia =
propositum fuit verbum Dei per magistrum Thomam Duffeld, sequentem hoc =
thema, 'Visita vineam istam' etc [I know it's Ps 80, v 14])? I have a =
lot of this sort of thing in the episcopal records I work on.
Many thanks
Rosemary Hayes
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Bill East=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: [M-R] Fw: [M-R] "the" Vulgate
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and =
culture=20
[log in to unmask] wrote:=20
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and =
culture=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Catherine Gunn=20
<<since I came to medieval studies by a rather circuitous route, and =
am largely self-taught, some things remain a mystery to me - including =
what scholars mean when they refer to 'the Vulgate'.>>
I have this archived on my machine, something I wrote for an Irish =
e-mail group. Forgive all the extraneous material but it is too busy a =
day (Good Friday for us Orthodox) to edit it.
Fr Ambrose
Saint Jerome began his work of translating the Bible into Latin =
around 380
AD while still in Rome.=20
Respondeo: Fr Ambrose provides us with an admirable history of the =
Vulgate, but I think more should be said about Jerome's part in it. He =
mentions that Jerome translated the psalms directly from the Hebrew. So =
he did, eventually, in the 'Hebraica' a version that never really caught =
on in popular use. The version usually found in the Vulgate is the =
Gallican, though if my memory serves me, Amiatinus has the Hebraica.
It may be helpful to quote from Plater and White's 'A Grammar of the =
Vulgate' p. 5:
"The modern Vulgate is a composite work, only some parts of which =
are due to Jerome. It may be arranged in six divisions, giving his share =
in an ascending scale.
(1) OLD LATIN, wholly untouched by Jerome, as merely =
'ecclesiastical', not 'canonical': Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, I and II =
Maccabees, Baruch.
(2) OLD LATIN, slightly revised, but to an extent hard to determine: =
Acts, Epistles, Apocalypse. Here Jerome left a good deal uncorrected; =
and in later MSS the Vulgate and the Old Latin texts were often mixed, =
so that the traces of his recision were still further obscured.
(3) Free and rapid translation from the CHALDEE, as Jerome calls it: =
Tobias (i.e. Tobit) and Judith. The former book was finished in one day, =
the latter in a single sitting (lucubatiuncula).
(4) Translation from the SEPTUAGINT: the Psalter. The Psalter =
included in the Bible is the earlier of 'Gallican'; not the later =
translation made by Jerome direct from the Hebrew.
(5) Revision and partial correction of the Old Latin from the most =
ancient Greek MSS available: the Gospels.
(6) Jerome's independent translation from the HEBREW, the first ever =
made: the Canonical Books of the Old Testament, with the exception of =
the Psalter.
It will be seen that Jerome's particular contribution was his new =
and original translation of the Hebrew Scriptures; for the rest of the =
Bible he was at most a reviser of earlier versions.
I would recommend to our original enquirer the book by Plater and =
White (Oxford University Press 1926, reprinted 1997); also the Cambridge =
History of the Bible, vol. 2, especially chapters 4 (on Jerome) and 5 =
(on the Medieval History of the Latin Vulgate).
Bill.
Send instant messages to your online friends =
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com =
********************************************************************** =
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: =
[log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: =
[log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: =
leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report =
problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: =
[log in to unmask] For further information, visit =
our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My apologies if this takes us back to =
the start of=20
the discussion, but which of the on-line texts would the experts =
recommend for=20
those of us who are just trying to identify snippets (for example: 'ante =
omnia=20
propositum fuit verbum Dei per magistrum Thomam Duffeld, sequentem hoc =
thema,=20
<STRONG>'Visita vineam istam'</STRONG> etc [I know it's Ps 80, v =
14])? I=20
have a lot of this sort of thing in the episcopal records I work=20
on.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Many thanks</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rosemary Hayes</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [log in to unmask]
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Bill East</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
[log in to unmask]
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">MEDIEVAL-RELIGION@JISCMA=
IL.AC.UK</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 29, 2005 =
8:38=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [M-R] Fw: [M-R] =
"the"=20
Vulgate</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval =
religion=20
and culture=20
<DIV><BR><BR><B><I><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></I></B> =
wrote:=20
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dreplbq=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px =
solid">medieval-religion:=20
Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture=20
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> =
<A=20
[log in to unmask] =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Catherine=20
Gunn</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B></B> </DIV>
<DIV><<<FONT size=3D2>since I came to medieval studies by a =
rather=20
circuitous route, and am largely self-taught, some things remain a =
mystery=20
to me - including what scholars mean when they refer to 'the=20
Vulgate'.>></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I have this archived on my machine, something I =
wrote for=20
an Irish e-mail group. Forgive all the extraneous material but =
it is=20
too busy a day (Good Friday for us Orthodox) to edit =
it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Fr Ambrose</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT>Saint Jerome began his work of=20
translating the Bible into Latin around 380<BR>AD while still in =
Rome.=20
</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT>Respondeo: Fr Ambrose provides =
us with an=20
admirable history of the Vulgate, but I think more should be said =
about=20
Jerome's part in it. He mentions that Jerome translated the psalms =
directly=20
from the Hebrew. So he did, eventually, in the 'Hebraica' a version =
that=20
never really caught on in popular use. The version usually found in =
the=20
Vulgate is the Gallican, though if my memory serves me, Amiatinus =
has the=20
Hebraica.</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT>It may be helpful to quote from =
Plater=20
and White's 'A Grammar of the Vulgate' p. 5:</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT>"The modern Vulgate is a =
composite work,=20
only some parts of which are due to Jerome. It may be arranged in =
six=20
divisions, giving his share in an ascending scale.</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT>(1) OLD LATIN, wholly untouched =
by=20
Jerome, as merely 'ecclesiastical', not 'canonical': Wisdom, =
Ecclesiasticus,=20
I and II Maccabees, Baruch.</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT>(2) OLD LATIN, slightly =
revised, but to=20
an extent hard to determine: Acts, Epistles, Apocalypse. Here Jerome =
left a=20
good deal uncorrected; and in later MSS the Vulgate and the Old =
Latin texts=20
were often mixed, so that the traces of his recision were still =
further=20
obscured.</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT>(3) Free and rapid translation =
from the=20
CHALDEE, as Jerome calls it: Tobias (i.e. Tobit) and Judith. The =
former book=20
was finished in one day, the latter in a single sitting=20
(lucubatiuncula).</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT>(4) Translation from the =
SEPTUAGINT: the=20
Psalter. The Psalter included in the Bible is the earlier of =
'Gallican'; not=20
the later translation made by Jerome direct from the=20
Hebrew.</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT>(5) Revision and partial =
correction of=20
the Old Latin from the most ancient Greek MSS available: the=20
Gospels.</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT>(6) Jerome's independent =
translation from=20
the HEBREW, the first ever made: the Canonical Books of the Old =
Testament,=20
with the exception of the Psalter.</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT>It will be seen that Jerome's =
particular=20
contribution was his new and original translation of the Hebrew =
Scriptures;=20
for the rest of the Bible he was at most a reviser of earlier=20
versions.</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT>I would recommend to our =
original=20
enquirer the book by Plater and White (Oxford University Press 1926, =
reprinted 1997); also the Cambridge History of the Bible, vol. 2, =
especially=20
chapters 4 (on Jerome) and 5 (on the Medieval History of the Latin=20
Vulgate).</TT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua"><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><TT>Bill.</TT></FONT></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV><IMG=20
src=3D"http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG =
src=3D"http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG =
src=3D"http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG =
src=3D"http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG =
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src=3D"http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG =
=
src=3D"http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"></DIV><=
/DIV></DIV>
<P>Send instant messages to your online friends =
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com=20
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------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C54CAA.E2F73410--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:52:03 +0100
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: John Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fw: [M-R] "the" Vulgate
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Dr Rosemary Hayes wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
>
> My apologies if this takes us back to the start of the discussion,
> but which of the on-line texts would the experts recommend for those
> of us who are just trying to identify snippets (for example: 'ante
> omnia propositum fuit verbum Dei per magistrum Thomam Duffeld,
> sequentem hoc thema, 'Visita vineam istam' etc [I know it's Ps 80, v
> 14])? I have a lot of this sort of thing in the episcopal records I
> work on.
Actually, it's verse 15, and the Psalm is usually numbered 79 in the
Vulgate!
It's simplest to load the Vulsearch search system onto your computer with
the Clementine Vulgate (which is where we came in), with the additional
"Stuttgart Vulgate" text as well.
John Briggs
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:09:27 +0100
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Dr Rosemary Hayes <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fw: [M-R] "the" Vulgate
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
many thanks John. I hope my PC can cope. - Both my Jerusalem (which I had
thought followed the Vulgate numbering but I now see follows the numbering
of 'the Hebrew Bible') and RSV bibles had it as Psalm 80, and at the end of
verse 14, although it would make more sense for it to be at the beginning of
15. - I suppose this begs the question of what version of the bible one
should cite in notes that are more likely to be read by historical rather
than biblical scholars - the 'correct' Vulgate that the original writer was
referring to, or the bible that is likely to be on most people's shelves.
Rosemary
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Briggs" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: [M-R] Fw: [M-R] "the" Vulgate
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> Dr Rosemary Hayes wrote:
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>> culture
>>
>> My apologies if this takes us back to the start of the discussion,
>> but which of the on-line texts would the experts recommend for those
>> of us who are just trying to identify snippets (for example: 'ante
>> omnia propositum fuit verbum Dei per magistrum Thomam Duffeld,
>> sequentem hoc thema, 'Visita vineam istam' etc [I know it's Ps 80, v
>> 14])? I have a lot of this sort of thing in the episcopal records I
>> work on.
>
> Actually, it's verse 15, and the Psalm is usually numbered 79 in the
> Vulgate!
>
> It's simplest to load the Vulsearch search system onto your computer with
> the Clementine Vulgate (which is where we came in), with the additional
> "Stuttgart Vulgate" text as well.
>
> John Briggs
>
> **********************************************************************
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>
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:09:56 +0100
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: John Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: saints of the day 29. April - Ember and Rogation Days
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Bill East wrote:
>
> Her feast is moreover a Day of Special Prayer for Europe. Such days
> did not exist in the Middle Ages, but were instituted to replace the
> old Ember Days and Rogation Days.
>
> The Ember Days were four groups of three days, namely the Wednesday,
> Friday and Saturday after St Lucy (13th Dec), Ash Wednesday
> (variable), Pentecost (fifty days after Easter) and Holy Cross Day
> (14th Sept). They were observed as days of fasting and abstinence in
> the western Church.
>
> The Rogation Days had a different origin and purpose. The 'Major
> Rogation' was 25th April, i.e. St Mark's Day, though this seems to be
> merely coincidental. In fact it was a christianised form of the pagan
> 'Robigalia' which took the form of processions throught eh cornfields
> to pray for the preservation of the crops from mildew. The 'Minor
> Rogations' were kept on the Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday before
> Ascension Day.
The Embers Days and the three Rogation Days are, of course, still in the
Book of Common Prayer.
John Briggs
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:31:27 +0100
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: John Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fw: [M-R] "the" Vulgate
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Dr Rosemary Hayes wrote:
>
> many thanks John. I hope my PC can cope. - Both my Jerusalem (which
> I had thought followed the Vulgate numbering but I now see follows
> the numbering of 'the Hebrew Bible') and RSV bibles had it as Psalm
> 80, and at the end of verse 14, although it would make more sense for
> it to be at the beginning of 15. - I suppose this begs the question of=
=20
> what version of the bible
> one should cite in notes that are more likely to be read by
> historical rather than biblical scholars - the 'correct' Vulgate that
> the original writer was referring to, or the bible that is likely to
> be on most people's shelves.
Yes, OK - Hebrew/Protestant verse numbering for this Psalm is one adrift=20
from the Vulgate (the Nova Vulgata has the Hebrew/Protestant Psalm=20
numbering, but the traditional verse numbering, albeit with the extraneou=
s=20
words in italics!)
I suppose verse numbering isn't a strictly mediaeval problem, as it only=20
came in in the 16th century! As there doesn't seem to be a 'typical=20
medieval' Vulgate, the Clementine Vulgate is the nearest we are going to=20
get!
Clementine Vulgate, Ps 79, v.15:
15 Deus virtutum, convertere,
respice de c=E6lo, et vide,
et visita vineam istam :
'Douay-Rheims':
15 Turn again, O God of hosts, look down from heaven, and see, and visit=20
this vineyard:
John Briggs=20
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:33:42 +0100
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Bill East <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: saints of the day 29. April - Ember and Rogation Days
In-Reply-To: 6667
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
John Briggs <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
The Embers Days and the three Rogation Days are, of course, still in the
Book of Common Prayer.
Respondeo:
They are indeed, and are faithfully used by 0.0001% of Christians worldwide.
Bill.
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<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>John Briggs <[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<P><BR><BR>The Embers Days and the three Rogation Days are, of course, still in the<BR>Book of Common Prayer.<BR><BR>Respondeo:</P>
<P>They are indeed, and are faithfully used by 0.0001% of Christians worldwide.</P>
<P>Bill.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR><DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"></DIV></DIV></DIV><p>Send instant messages to your online friends
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:50:58 -0700
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: John McChesney-Young <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fw: [M-R] "the" Vulgate
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Rochelle Altman wrote in part:
> ... My special area is the Psalter, which is a bit more complicated. Jerome's
> first attempt is what is called "the" Romanum and was created from existing
> old Latin texts. His second attempt is what was called the Gallican --
> and is referred to as such in OE Psalters...
The ODCC3 says in the article on the Roman Psalter, "Earlier scholarship
equated it with [the] revision of the Latin psalter which St. Jerome
says he compiled hastily ('cursim') on the basis of the Septuagint. Few
scholars now think that the Roman psalter was produced by Jerome, though
he may have used it as a basis for this first attempt to translate the
Psalms."
The citations in the bibliography are all over 50 years old; has the
consensus changed back to Hieronyman authorship?
John
--
*** John McChesney-Young ** panis~at~pacbell.net ** Berkeley,
California, U.S.A. ***
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:27:28 -0500
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Theresa Gross-Diaz <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fw: [M-R] "the" Vulgate
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I know about the Gallican / Hebrew (RC/ Protestant) split in the numbering =
of the Pss, but was surprised to note ambivalence in the numbering of Pss =
even within the modern Catholic usage... : our parish mass leaflet, which =
has the readings in both Spanish and English, gives the RSV numbers for =
the English renderings -- and the Vulgate numbers for the Spanish =
translation! Do modern catholic spanish psalters thus follow the old =
numbering? Is there a reason?
TGD
>>> [log in to unmask] 4/29/05 7:31 AM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Dr Rosemary Hayes wrote:
>
> many thanks John. I hope my PC can cope. - Both my Jerusalem (which
> I had thought followed the Vulgate numbering but I now see follows
> the numbering of 'the Hebrew Bible') and RSV bibles had it as Psalm
> 80, and at the end of verse 14, although it would make more sense for
> it to be at the beginning of 15. - I suppose this begs the question =
of=20
> what version of the bible
> one should cite in notes that are more likely to be read by
> historical rather than biblical scholars - the 'correct' Vulgate that
> the original writer was referring to, or the bible that is likely to
> be on most people's shelves.
Yes, OK - Hebrew/Protestant verse numbering for this Psalm is one =
adrift=20
from the Vulgate (the Nova Vulgata has the Hebrew/Protestant Psalm=20
numbering, but the traditional verse numbering, albeit with the extraneous=
=20
words in italics!)
I suppose verse numbering isn't a strictly mediaeval problem, as it =
only=20
came in in the 16th century! As there doesn't seem to be a 'typical=20
medieval' Vulgate, the Clementine Vulgate is the nearest we are going =
to=20
get!
Clementine Vulgate, Ps 79, v.15:
15 Deus virtutum, convertere,
respice de c=E6lo, et vide,
et visita vineam istam :
'Douay-Rheims':
15 Turn again, O God of hosts, look down from heaven, and see, and =
visit=20
this vineyard:
John Briggs=20
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:52:32 -0400
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
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From: "V. Kerry Inman" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fw: [M-R] "the" Vulgate
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The only thing I want to add to this is that, what is 'Vugate'(the Latin Bible
in use) is technically a combination of 'Old Latin'(various versions based on
the LXX) and 'Hieronyman' (by Jerome from the Hebrew). One needs to keep the
three texts identified if one is involved in text criticism, but alas this
often not done. For most medieval scholarship, I would think the important
matter is identifying the text in use at the time rather than the sources, but
alas this is not always done either.
Hope this complicates things!
--V. K. Inman
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 21:38:42 +0200
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From: Rochelle Altman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fw: [M-R] "the" Vulgate
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Hi, John McC,
Yes, I know that the latest position is that Jerome was not involved in the
Romanum. Yet, as late as the mid-1990's Jerome was still credited with all
three versions. We could be inheritors of a tradition that, like David and
the Psalms, assigned all of the works to Jerome. We do know that the
Gallican/Vulgate tradition is based on Jerome's translation/edition; he
states it. In fact, this is part of the basis for believing that he had
nothing to do with the Romanum -- yet someone compiled a Psalter from
existing Old Latin versions... and, from what little evidence we have, in
that same time frame.
I'm very hesitant to assert that Jerome had nothing to do with the Romanum
and even more hesitant to claim that Jerome just used portions of a Romanum
for his translation from Greek.
Although the Old Latin is a mare's nest, still, all these translations are
necessarily related -- all the early Greek ones started from the same base
text (albeit, with variants) -- the Latin translations necessarily will
have many similarities of phrasing. (Just a thought: could some of this
mess in the Old Latin versions be due to Latin translations from Hebrew as
well as Greek??? ) Jerome's translation from Greek versions will
necessarily have similarities to phrases in the Romanum versions.
Perhaps it was the experience with BN Lat. MS 8824 that has made me very
cautious. When it is decided that a Latin text had _49_ different sources
based on this word is from X and that word from Y and that word from Z ,
and this phrase is from A and that phrase is from B, and that phrase is
from XYZ's commentaries, it does tend to make one doubt the validity of the
approach... particularly with this material.
Let's complicate the picture even more.
On the Irish side of the Channel, the Cathach is in the Gallican/Vulgate
tradition and said to have been the first copy of "Jerome's Psalter" in
Ireland. (Which would tend towards the nothing to do with the Romanum point
of view.) However, on the British side, the two oldest Psalters are
isolates: in one, the Latin text is more or less a Romanum type -- with
touches of Hebraicum. The other Latin text is the 49-source -- but still
considered a Gallican/Vulgate -- version. (The assumption that this Latin
text _had_ to be a Vulgate led the first editor [Thorpe] to emend the text
to match "the" Vulgate in his edition.) Yet, close examination showed that
this was a new translation from Greek and has some real surprises -- verses
that "fit" and do not appear in any other known versions (e.g., PS: 96(95)
-- I hope to be able to write this up soon).
Now, let's add another problem: the assumption that the biblical materials
arrived only in Latin.
Scholars, such as D.R Howlett, have been demonstrating that Greek and
Hebrew were known.
I found very strong evidence that Hebrew was known. The recent
archeological finds, such as the bronze age (ca. 1250 BCE) shipwreck off
Devon -- and the mtDNA results, make it very clear that, yes, Greek,
Hebrew, Iberian, Punic, etc. were definitely known and that contact between
the Iberian Peninsula, the Mediterranean, and the Atlantic coasts
of Britain and Ireland had been around for a couple of thousand years by
the turn of the Common Era. (The very latest find, two days ago, settled
the question of Stone age inhabitants in Britain -- before the Island
became an island.)
This linguistic melange has bearing on Latin Psalters.If, a new translation
from Greek is forced into the Gallican/Vulgate mode, and, if a more or less
Romanum (with Hebraicum portions) is forced into the Romanum mode, then
what can we truly know about Jerome and the Romanum? Did he throw together
a Psalter from existing old Latin versions as tradition had it? Did he
borrow phrases from a Romanum for his translation/edition from Greek? I
sincerely doubt the latter on the grounds of same original source base
texts will necessarily turn up similar phrases -- and I think the former
needs very strong evidence to dismiss such a long tradition. Someone did it.
Somehow, I keep thinking of Coverdale's Psalter when the Jerome-Romanum
question comes up. Tyndale had not translated the Psalter and Coverdale
needed one for the authorized version he was ordered to prepare. So, he
collected all the known versions of the Psalms in English that were around
and threw together a Psalter.
Oh, dear, don't get me started on the Psalters!
Rochelle
>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
>Rochelle Altman wrote in part:
>
>>... My special area is the Psalter, which is a bit more complicated. Jerome's
>>first attempt is what is called "the" Romanum and was created from existing
>>old Latin texts. His second attempt is what was called the Gallican --
>>and is referred to as such in OE Psalters...
>
>The ODCC3 says in the article on the Roman Psalter, "Earlier scholarship
>equated it with [the] revision of the Latin psalter which St. Jerome
>says he compiled hastily ('cursim') on the basis of the Septuagint. Few
>scholars now think that the Roman psalter was produced by Jerome, though
>he may have used it as a basis for this first attempt to translate the
>Psalms."
>
>The citations in the bibliography are all over 50 years old; has the
>consensus changed back to Hieronyman authorship?
>
>John
>--
>
>
>*** John McChesney-Young ** panis~at~pacbell.net ** Berkeley,
>California, U.S.A. ***
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:20:47 -0500
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From: Alan Zola <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: the Vulgate
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Does anyone have information about variations within the Vulgate version =
of the Song of Songs?
In both the University of Chicago online Vulgate and in the "Nova Vulgata =
Bibliorum Sacrorum" (1986), Songs 2:5 and 5:8 contain the phrase "amore =
langueo." However, many medieval writers quote a variation of this =
phrase: "vulnerata caritate ego sum." For example, in the Corpus =
Christianorum edition of Augustine's "Ennarationes in Psalmos," 37, 5, l. =
56 "Quoniam vulnerata caritate ego sum" is placed in italics and has a =
footnote that reads "Cant. 2, 5 et 5.8." A search of the Patrologia =
Latina, indicates that "Vulneratus/-ta caritate ego sum" was used by =
writers ranging in time from Ambrose to Bernard of Clairvaux. =20
Alan Zola
Loyola University Chicago
=20
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 15:10:39 -0500
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From: Theresa Gross-Diaz <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: the Vulgate
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Hi Alan!
Your query to lthe list reminded me that I never did get back to you on =
this question! Sorry about that. I was actually on my way to look up =
Mary Dove's intro to her ed of the Glossa Ordinaria to see if she talks =
about this, when I was accosted by a student and got sidetracked. Mary =
Dove would probably be the best person to ask; she knows more about =
medieval versions of the Sof S than anyone I know. I'll see if I can find =
her e-mail.
In the meantime, other comments the list has already articulated are =
aplicable to your question: there wasn't "a" Vulgate, but many variants =
on any given book. The three "main" variants on the Psalms (Gallican, =
Hebrew, Septuagint) give us the false impression, perhaps, that the other =
books of the Bible just had one textual tradition per book. That's just =
not true. Even the "Paris university" bible of the 13C had variants, =
though it is (and was) touted as a specific (and implicitly unvariable) =
edition. =20
So in short I'm not sure how important it is to your argument; does it =
matter that one says "amore langueo" in stead of "vulnerate caritate" ? =
Are you trying to localize a manuscript by its variants, or what?
Theresa
>>> [log in to unmask] 4/29/05 2:20 PM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Does anyone have information about variations within the Vulgate version =
of the Song of Songs?
In both the University of Chicago online Vulgate and in the "Nova Vulgata =
Bibliorum Sacrorum" (1986), Songs 2:5 and 5:8 contain the phrase "amore =
langueo." However, many medieval writers quote a variation of this =
phrase: "vulnerata caritate ego sum." For example, in the Corpus =
Christianorum edition of Augustine's "Ennarationes in Psalmos," 37, 5, l. =
56 "Quoniam vulnerata caritate ego sum" is placed in italics and has a =
footnote that reads "Cant. 2, 5 et 5.8." A search of the Patrologia =
Latina, indicates that "Vulneratus/-ta caritate ego sum" was used by =
writers ranging in time from Ambrose to Bernard of Clairvaux. =20
Alan Zola
Loyola University Chicago
=20
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 15:19:56 -0500
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Theresa Gross-Diaz <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: the Vulgate
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
OOps, I did click the wrong "reply to" ... so sorry
TGD
>>> [log in to unmask] 4/29/05 3:10:39 PM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Hi Alan!
Your query to lthe list reminded me that I never did get back to you on =
this question! Sorry about that. I was actually on my way to look up =
Mary Dove's intro to her ed of the Glossa Ordinaria to see if she talks =
about this, when I was accosted by a student and got sidetracked. Mary =
Dove would probably be the best person to ask; she knows more about =
medieval versions of the Sof S than anyone I know. I'll see if I can find =
her e-mail.
In the meantime, other comments the list has already articulated are =
aplicable to your question: there wasn't "a" Vulgate, but many variants =
on any given book. The three "main" variants on the Psalms (Gallican, =
Hebrew, Septuagint) give us the false impression, perhaps, that the other =
books of the Bible just had one textual tradition per book. That's just =
not true. Even the "Paris university" bible of the 13C had variants, =
though it is (and was) touted as a specific (and implicitly unvariable) =
edition. =20
So in short I'm not sure how important it is to your argument; does it =
matter that one says "amore langueo" in stead of "vulnerate caritate" ? =
Are you trying to localize a manuscript by its variants, or what?
Theresa
>>> [log in to unmask] 4/29/05 2:20 PM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Does anyone have information about variations within the Vulgate version =
of the Song of Songs?
In both the University of Chicago online Vulgate and in the "Nova Vulgata =
Bibliorum Sacrorum" (1986), Songs 2:5 and 5:8 contain the phrase "amore =
langueo." However, many medieval writers quote a variation of this =
phrase: "vulnerata caritate ego sum." For example, in the Corpus =
Christianorum edition of Augustine's "Ennarationes in Psalmos," 37, 5, l. =
56 "Quoniam vulnerata caritate ego sum" is placed in italics and has a =
footnote that reads "Cant. 2, 5 et 5.8." A search of the Patrologia =
Latina, indicates that "Vulneratus/-ta caritate ego sum" was used by =
writers ranging in time from Ambrose to Bernard of Clairvaux. =20
Alan Zola
Loyola University Chicago
=20
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 21:27:50 +0100
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: John Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fw: [M-R] "the" Vulgate
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Rochelle Altman wrote:
>
> Somehow, I keep thinking of Coverdale's Psalter when the
> Jerome-Romanum question comes up. Tyndale had not translated the
> Psalter and Coverdale needed one for the authorized version he was
> ordered to prepare. So, he collected all the known versions of the
> Psalms in English that were around and threw together a Psalter.
It's bit more complicated than that. Coverdale's 1535 translation of the
Bible was based on Tyndale, Luther, "the" Vulgate, Pagnino's Latin version
of 1527 and a Zurich Bible. He then edited the "Great Bible" of 1539 & 1540
(a revision of Matthew's Bible of 1537, which had used Tyndale, and
Coverdale for the rest). The Psalter in the Book of Common Prayer was
apparently taken from the Great Bible - it differs from that in Coverdale's
1535 version!
John Briggs
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Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 01:40:22 +0200
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Rochelle Altman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fw: [M-R] "the" Vulgate
In-Reply-To: <02e701c54cf9$ea5f77e0$28b40150@john1>
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Yes, John B,
(Well, with so many John's out here...)
Yes, I know about the histories of these Psalters... I was specifically
referring to how Coverdale came up with a Psalter, fast. The English
Psalter tradition is a delightful mess to sort out... full of contradictory
statements as to source texts and Psalm versions dating back to the
earliest translations in ASE popping up in the 10th, 11th, and 14th
centuries...
BTW, have you ever read Tyndale's third preface to his Obedyence of a
Christian Gentleman?
Rochelle
>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
>Rochelle Altman wrote:
>>
>>Somehow, I keep thinking of Coverdale's Psalter when the
>>Jerome-Romanum question comes up. Tyndale had not translated the
>>Psalter and Coverdale needed one for the authorized version he was
>>ordered to prepare. So, he collected all the known versions of the
>>Psalms in English that were around and threw together a Psalter.
>
>It's bit more complicated than that. Coverdale's 1535 translation of the
>Bible was based on Tyndale, Luther, "the" Vulgate, Pagnino's Latin version
>of 1527 and a Zurich Bible. He then edited the "Great Bible" of 1539 & 1540
>(a revision of Matthew's Bible of 1537, which had used Tyndale, and
>Coverdale for the rest). The Psalter in the Book of Common Prayer was
>apparently taken from the Great Bible - it differs from that in Coverdale's
>1535 version!
>
>John Briggs
>
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Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 00:25:19 +0100
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: John Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "the" Vulgate
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Rochelle Altman wrote:
>
> Yes, I know about the histories of these Psalters... I was
> specifically referring to how Coverdale came up with a Psalter, fast.
Yes, but you didn't say *which* Psalter.
I'm puzzled by the way the language of the Prayer-Book Psalter (assuming
that it is from the Great Bible) differs from that of Coverdale's 1535
version.
> BTW, have you ever read Tyndale's third preface to his Obedyence of a
> Christian Gentleman?
"Christian Man." No, I don't think so - only extracts.
John Briggs
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 19:05:21 -0700
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From: Phyllis Jestice <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: saints of the day 30. April
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Today (30. April) is the feast day of:
Maximus (d. 250) Maximus was an Ephesian merchant, arrested during
the Decian persecution. He was tortured and then stoned to death.
Eutropius of Saintes (3rd cent.) Eutropius was, according to legend,
one St. Denis' companions, sent from Rome to Gaul as missionaries.
He was the first bishop of Saintes, but his intended flock didn't
take kindly to him---they kicked him out of the city, so he settled
down in a cave outside of Saintes, from which he preached and made
converts. E's converts included the daughter of the Roman
governor---who was so enranged that he sikked the butchers of the
town on E, who killed him with meat axes.
Forannan (d. 982) Forannan was an Irish bishop---his see is given as
"Domhnach-Mor"---where this was is unknown. F. went with twelve
companions (of course; what other number of companions could a saint
have?) to Belgium in obedience to a dream, and settled at the
monastery of Waulsort. F. became abbot in 962 and reformed the place.
Gualfardus (d. 1127) Gualfardus (or Wolfhard) was a leather-worker
of Augsburg. He moved to Verona in 1096, gave all his earnings to
the poor, and soon became a hermit. Later he became a Camoldolese
monk, famous for his miracle-working abilities.
An early modern saint: Pius V (d. 1572) Antonio Ghislieri, the future
Pius V, was a Dominican professor of theology and philosophy. He was
appointed bishop of Nepi and Butri in 1556, inquisitor of Lombardy in
1557, and soon thereafter became a cardinal and inquisitor general.
He was elected pope in 1566 and set out to implement the decrees of
the Council of Trent. He simplified the papal court, completed the
new catechism, reformed the breviary and missal, lived a life of
personal austerity and piety, and was generous to the poor. He also
worked desperately against heretics and Turks. P was canonized in
1712.
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:39:41 -0400
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Steve <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: For those coming to Kalamazoo
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
For those of you coming to Kalamazoo next week, I thought I'd give an
update on how to get around campus.
The traffic circle at the west end of campus is complete and you can
enter campus via this circle. It's a little tricky but make a 270-degree
loop around it and go up the main road. You can't miss it.
But since WMU campus planners think they're not doing their job if
they're not tearing the campus up, there is a new disruption, but it
shouldn't affect you too much unless you're going by Sangren Hall or
trying to get to the library. WMU is putting in a new chemistry building
on a part of the campus it said it would never build anything on, south
of Sangren Hall near the library. Part of the Sangren Hall parking lot
(on the south side, not the north) is fenced off for construction
equipment, and the fence cuts through to the building site, creating a
distinct Berlin Wall effect that makes getting around that part of
campus quite difficult. There are pedestrian "detour" signs but they're
not very reliable.
Other than that, disruptions are at a minimum. See you all at the Zoo!
Steve Cartwright
Western Michigan University
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Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 07:50:24 +0100
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
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From: John Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: saints of the day 30. April
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Phyllis Jestice wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
> Today (30. April) is the feast day of:
The Deposition of St Erkenwald - not a Sarum feast, although the Office is
in some Breviaries. In the London diocese, it is an Inferior double feast,
with three lessons at Matins.
> An early modern saint: Pius V (d. 1572) Antonio Ghislieri, the future
> Pius V, was a Dominican professor of theology and philosophy. He was
> appointed bishop of Nepi and Butri in 1556, inquisitor of Lombardy in
> 1557, and soon thereafter became a cardinal and inquisitor general.
> He was elected pope in 1566 and set out to implement the decrees of
> the Council of Trent. He simplified the papal court, completed the
> new catechism, reformed the breviary and missal, lived a life of
> personal austerity and piety, and was generous to the poor. He also
> worked desperately against heretics and Turks. P was canonized in
> 1712.
He consolidated the Reformation in England, by excommunicating Elizabeth I
(she got the Archbishop of Canterbury to excommunicate *him*!) He took up
the cause of Mary Queen of Scots, with similar success.
John Briggs
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Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 08:04:48 +0100
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From: Bill East <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fw: [M-R] "the" Vulgate
In-Reply-To: 6667
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Theresa Gross-Diaz <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I know about the Gallican / Hebrew (RC/ Protestant) split in the numbering of the Pss, but was surprised to note ambivalence in the numbering of Pss even within the modern Catholic usage... : our parish mass leaflet, which has the readings in both Spanish and English, gives the RSV numbers for the English renderings -- and the Vulgate numbers for the Spanish translation! Do modern catholic spanish psalters thus follow the old numbering? Is there a reason?
Respondeo:
It is done to avoid confusion.
BIll.
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Theresa Gross-Diaz <[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<P>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture<BR><BR>I know about the Gallican / Hebrew (RC/ Protestant) split in the numbering of the Pss, but was surprised to note ambivalence in the numbering of Pss even within the modern Catholic usage... : our parish mass leaflet, which has the readings in both Spanish and English, gives the RSV numbers for the English renderings -- and the Vulgate numbers for the Spanish translation! Do modern catholic spanish psalters thus follow the old numbering? Is there a reason?</P>
<P>Respondeo:</P>
<P>It is done to avoid confusion.</P>
<P>BIll.</P>
<P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR><DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"><IMG src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/40.gif"></DIV></DIV></DIV><p>Send instant messages to your online friends
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Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:42:23 +0200
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From: Rochelle Altman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "the" Vulgate
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>[snip]
>I'm puzzled by the way the language of the Prayer-Book Psalter (assuming
>that it is from the Great Bible) differs from that of Coverdale's 1535
>version.
>
>[snip[
>John Briggs
Some of George Joye's translations of 1530 and 1534 replace those of
Coverdale's 1535 collation in the 1549 Book of Common Prayer. Is that what
you are referring to?
Then, Thomas Sternhold's Metrical Psalms also were published in 1549... I
used to wonder about the Bay Psalm Book (typical English ridng rhyme)--
until I read Sternhold's...
Rochelle Altman
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Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 02:48:15 -0800
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From: Terrill Heaps <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Psalms
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Rochelle Altman wrote:
> Some of George Joye's translations of 1530 and 1534 replace those of
> Coverdale's 1535 collation in the 1549 Book of Common Prayer. Is that what
> you are referring to?
>
> Then, Thomas Sternhold's Metrical Psalms also were published in 1549... I
> used to wonder about the Bay Psalm Book (typical English ridng rhyme)--
> until I read Sternhold's...
Quite! It is amazing how long the Sternhold & Hopkins was used. Amazing too,
how long the "successor" book of rhymed Psalms, the Tate & Brady, had usage
in some of the village parishes.
I think that both the Sternhold & Hopkins and the Tate & Brady are uneven.
The rhymed Psalms range from pretty good to doggerel.
I do have to credit Tate & Brady for (in my opinion) their best piece of
work, which was a the translation of a hymn, the Jesu Christus Surrexit
Hodie, from 14th century Latin, which (I should think) all English-speaking
Christians know: "Jesus Christ is ris'n today, Alleluia! Our triumphant holy
day, Alleluia!" etc. The doxological 4th stanza added by Fr. Charles Wesley
makes the hymn a sine qua non at Paschaltide.
Tate & Brady's rhymed version of Psalm 42 has become the hymn "As pants the
hart," with a doxolgical 4th stanza. Example below:
Cheers,
Terrill
Tate & Brady:
As pants the hart for cooling streams
when heated in the chase,
so longs my soul, O God, for thee
and thy refreshing grace.
For thee, my God, the living God,
my thirsty soul doth pine:
O when shall I behold thy face,
thou Majesty divine?
Why restless, why cast down, my soul?
Hope still, and thou shalt sing
the praise of him who is thy God,
thy health's eternal spring.
To Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,
the God whom we adore,
be glory, as it was, is now,
and shall be evermore.
BCP 1928:
Psalm 42. _Quemadmodum._
LIKE as the hart desireth the water-brooks, * so longeth my soul
after thee, O God.
2 My soul is athirst for God, yea, even for the living God: * when
shall I come to appear before the presence of God?
3 My tears have been my meat day and night, * while they daily
say unto me, Where is now thy God?
4 Now when I think thereupon, I pour out my heart by myself; * for I
went with the multitude, and brought them forth into the house of
God;
5 In the voice of praise and thanksgiving, * among such as keep
holy-day.
6 Why art thou so full of heaviness, O my soul? * and why art thou
so disquieted within me?
7 O put thy trust in God; * for I will yet thank him, which is the
help of my countenance, and my God.
8 My soul is vexed within me; * therefore will I remember thee from
the land of Jordan, from Hermon and the little hill.
9 One deep calleth another, because of the noise of thy
water-floods1; * all thy waves and storms are gone over me.
10 The LORD will grant his loving-kindness in the daytime; * and
in the night season will I sing of him, and make my prayer unto the
God of my life.
11 I will say unto the God of my strength, Why hast thou forgotten
me? * why go I thus heavily, while the enemy oppresseth me?
12 My bones are smitten asunder as with a sword, * while mine
enemies that trouble me cast me in the teeth;
13 Namely, while they say daily unto me, * Where is now thy God?
14 Why art thou so vexed, O my soul? * and why art thou so
disquieted within me?
15 O put thy trust in God; * for I will yet thank him, which is the
help of my countenance, and my God.
Psalm 41 (42) from the Vulgate version on the University of Minnesota Gopher
server:
41:2 quemadmodum desiderat cervus ad fontes aquarum ita desiderat anima mea
ad te Deus
41:3 sitivit anima mea ad Deum *fortem; vivum quando veniam et parebo ante
faciem Dei
41:4 fuerunt mihi lacrimae meae panis die ac nocte dum dicitur mihi cotidie
ubi est Deus tuus
41:5 haec recordatus sum et effudi in me animam meam quoniam transibo in loco
tabernaculi admirabilis usque ad domum Dei in voce exultationis et
confessionis sonus epulantis
41:6 quare tristis es anima mea et quare conturbas me spera in Deo quoniam
confitebor illi salutare vultus mei
41:7 Deus meus ad me ipsum anima mea conturbata est propterea memor ero tui
de terra Iordanis et Hermoniim a monte modico
41:8 abyssus *ad; abyssum invocat in voce cataractarum tuarum omnia excelsa
tua et fluctus tui super me transierunt
41:9 in die mandavit Dominus misericordiam suam et nocte canticum eius apud
me oratio Deo vitae meae
41:10 dicam Deo susceptor meus es quare oblitus es mei quare contristatus
incedo dum adfligit me inimicus
41:11 dum confringuntur ossa mea exprobraverunt mihi qui tribulant me dum
dicunt mihi per singulos dies ubi est Deus tuus
41:12 quare tristis es anima mea et quare conturbas me spera in Deum quoniam
*adhuc; confitebor illi salutare vultus mei *et; Deus meus
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Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:34:05 +0100
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From: "Ms Brenda M. Cook" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: saints of the day 30. April
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
E's converts included the daughter of the Roman
> governor---who was so enranged that he sikked the butchers of the
> town on E, who killed him with meat axes.
Phyllis -
Is "sikked" a misprint or a new slang word ? Unfamiliar to me and not in my
Random House Dictionary which is US based & has an excellent list of usages
both sides of the pond. (I get the general drift, of course: egged on, hyped
up, &c.)
BMC
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Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 07:57:49 -0700
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From: Diana Wright <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: saints of the day 30. April
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
In my part of the country, it is *sicced* pronounced *sickd.* It is when
you egg on a dog to attack something by yelling "Sic 'em!"
DW
.
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> E's converts included the daughter of the Roman
> > governor---who was so enranged that he sikked the butchers of the
> > town on E, who killed him with meat axes.
>
> Phyllis -
>
> Is "sikked" a misprint or a new slang word ? Unfamiliar to me and not in
my
> Random House Dictionary which is US based & has an excellent list of
usages
> both sides of the pond. (I get the general drift, of course: egged on,
hyped
> up, &c.)
>
> BMC
>
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Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:13:52 -0700
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culture <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Marjorie Greene <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: TAN: "Sicced"
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: on-line Merriam Webster
8 entries found for sic.
To select an entry, click on it.
sic[1]sic[2,transitive verb]sic[3,adverb]sic passimet sic de similibuss=
ic=20
itur ad astrasic semper tyrannissic transit gloria mundi
Main Entry: 2sic
Variant(s): also sick /'sik/
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): sicced also sicked /'sikt/; sic=B7cing also sick=B7in=
g
Etymology: alteration of seek
1 : CHASE, ATTACK -- usually used as a command especially to a dog <sic '=
em>
2 : to incite or urge to an attack, pursuit, or harassment : SET
MG
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Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 20:25:20 +0200
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From: Rochelle Altman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Subject:Re: [M-R] Fw: [M-R] "the" Vulgate]
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
V.K.
[snip]
>This relates to a problem I am working on--the influence of Arabic on
Western
>and in particular English literature. This mostly occurred before the
end of
>were at this time basically dialects of a bundle of related dialects which
>could be designated a single language. They certainly differed from
each other
>no more that the current dialects of Arabic differ from each other.
There was someone who was working on the Arabic connection -- oh, at
least 9-10 years ago... it was mentioned on Ansax. I'll dig through my
files and see if I can locate at least the name... I do recall the
comment on Irish Ollahm (memory man) and Arabic ollam (sp??) (prof. of
law) -- but you know how iffy relying on word resemblance can be..
>To say Hebrew was known is one thing, but to define how well known is
another.
>In almost every port in the world one can find young boys who can
speak five or
>more languages--but only well enough to make a buck off a tourist.
Can you give
>me the references which are behind your statements, I could use them in my
>research. Also do you think that Hebrew was actually know well enough to
>influence Bible translations?
Surely, I said I had found very strong evidence that Hebrew was known.
The OE translation of the first 50 psalms in BN 8824 of is a connotative
translation, that is, they pick up and use both denotative and
connotative meanings..
The Hebrew Psalm 23(22) is extremely sophisticated.It is written in a
double envelope pattern and the lines are intricately linked. There is
one sustained metaphor: God the shepherd. There are two conceptual
domains: the surface domain is a lamb and the secondary domain is a
naughty little boy... both creatures prone to get into trouble. There
are 30 triggers in that little poem. The triggers switch back and forth
between domains. If there are 5 possible meanings, the poet meant all
five. The OE gets all 30 triggers and the connotative meanings. It is
impossible to get all 30 triggers and the connotative meanings without a
very deep knowledge of Hebrew -- and the cultural milieu.
Tables 10.1 and 10.2 on pages 172-173 of my book lay it all
out...trigger by trigger on a Componential Analysis Matrix that lists
possible translations, i.e. connotative meanings as well as denotative.
So, yes, Hebrew was known well enough to influence Bible translations.
Then, David Howlett has shown that texts in Latin contain multilingual
puns on Greek and Hebrew... there are acrostics that spell out Greek and
Hebrew words, and so on. Physical evidence can be found in the
pre-Rashi Hebrew alphabet written out and signed three times "Elizabeth"
in Hebrew -- written right across the bottom of folio 117v (I think) of
the OE Illustrated Hexateuch... in fact, it was Elizabeth that brought
up the possibility that Hebrew was taught, and to girls, therefore,
known....
(I'll have to dig through my boxes to find back a scan of the folio from
the Hexateuch...Elizabeth showed up 14 years ago and I haven't looked at
it in at least 13-14 years.)
The mtDNA reports add solid, scientific backing to the textual evidence
for the presence of speakers of Greek, Hebrew, Phoenician, and Iberian
on the Atlantic coasts of the British Isles. So does the shipwrec off of
Devon; so do the Phoenician tin ingots found in a buried shipwreck at
Falmouth back in the 1930's and which ingots are in the museum at Truro.
I'll send you a bib on Howlett and on the archaeological materials and
see if I can find at least the name of the person working on the
Arabic-Irish connection..
Regards
>V. K. Inman
Rochelle Altman
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<div>V.K.</div>
<br>
<div>[snip]</div>
<br>
<div>>This relates to a problem I am working on--the influence of
Arabic on Western</div>
<div>>and in particular English literature. This mostly occurred
before the end of</div>
<div>>were at this time basically dialects of a bundle of related
dialects which</div>
<div>>could be designated a single language. They certainly
differed from each other</div>
<div>>no more that the current dialects of Arabic differ from each
other.<br>
</div>
<br>
<div>There was someone who was working on the Arabic connection -- oh,
at least 9-10 years ago... it was mentioned on Ansax. I'll dig through
my files and see if I can locate at least the name... I do recall the
comment on Irish Ollahm (memory man) and Arabic ollam (sp??) (prof. of
law) -- but you know how iffy relying on word resemblance can be..</div>
<br>
<div>>To say Hebrew was known is one thing, but to define how well
known is another. </div>
<div>>In almost every port in the world one can find young boys who
can speak five or</div>
<div>>more languages--but only well enough to make a buck off a
tourist. Can you give</div>
<div>>me the references which are behind your statements, I could
use them in my</div>
<div>>research. Also do you think that Hebrew was actually know
well enough to</div>
<div>>influence Bible translations?</div>
<br>
<div>Surely, I said I had found very strong evidence that Hebrew was
known. The OE translation of the first 50 psalms in BN 8824 of is a
connotative translation, that is, they pick up and use both denotative
and connotative meanings.. </div>
<br>
<div>The Hebrew Psalm 23(22) is extremely sophisticated.It is written
in a double envelope pattern and the lines are intricately linked.
There is one sustained metaphor: God the shepherd. There are two
conceptual domains: the surface domain is a lamb and the secondary
domain is a naughty little boy... both creatures prone to get into
trouble. There are 30 triggers in that little poem. The triggers switch
back and forth between domains. If there are 5 possible meanings, the
poet meant all five. The OE gets all 30 triggers and the connotative
meanings. It is impossible to get all 30 triggers and the connotative
meanings without a very deep knowledge of Hebrew -- and the cultural
milieu. </div>
<br>
<div>Tables 10.1 and 10.2 on pages 172-173 of my book lay it all
out...trigger by trigger on a Componential Analysis Matrix that lists
possible translations, i.e. connotative meanings as well as denotative.
So, yes, Hebrew was known well enough to influence Bible translations. </div>
<br>
<div>Then, David Howlett has shown that texts in Latin contain
multilingual puns on Greek and Hebrew... there are acrostics that spell
out Greek and Hebrew words, and so on. Physical evidence can be found
in the pre-Rashi Hebrew alphabet written out and signed three times
"Elizabeth" in Hebrew -- written right across the bottom of folio 117v
(I think) of the OE Illustrated Hexateuch... in fact, it was Elizabeth
that brought up the possibility that Hebrew was taught, and to girls,
therefore, known.... </div>
<br>
<div>(I'll have to dig through my boxes to find back a scan of the
folio from the Hexateuch...Elizabeth showed up 14 years ago and I
haven't looked at it in at least 13-14 years.)</div>
<br>
<div>The mtDNA reports add solid, scientific backing to the textual
evidence for the presence of speakers of Greek, Hebrew, Phoenician,
and Iberian on the Atlantic coasts of the British Isles. So does the
shipwrec off of Devon; so do the Phoenician tin ingots found in a
buried shipwreck at Falmouth back in the 1930's and which ingots are in
the museum at Truro.</div>
<br>
<div>I'll send you a bib on Howlett and on the archaeological materials
and see if I can find at least the name of the person working on the
Arabic-Irish connection..</div>
<br>
<div>Regards</div>
<br>
<div>>V. K. Inman </div>
<br>
<div>Rochelle Altman</div>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
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Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:12:20 -0700
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
From: Diana Wright <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Subject:Re: [M-R] Fw: [M-R] "the" Vulgate]
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Can you give me the reference for the book of yours you mention so I can =
go with interlibrary loan? I am not having any luck searching in local =
libraries.
DW
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Rochelle Altman=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 11:25 AM
Subject: [M-R] Subject:Re: [M-R] Fw: [M-R] "the" Vulgate]
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and =
culture=20
=20
V.K.
[snip]
>This relates to a problem I am working on--the influence of Arabic on =
Western
>and in particular English literature. This mostly occurred before =
the end of
>were at this time basically dialects of a bundle of related dialects =
which
>could be designated a single language. They certainly differed from =
each other
>no more that the current dialects of Arabic differ from each other.
There was someone who was working on the Arabic connection -- oh, at =
least 9-10 years ago... it was mentioned on Ansax. I'll dig through my =
files and see if I can locate at least the name... I do recall the =
comment on Irish Ollahm (memory man) and Arabic ollam (sp??) (prof. of =
law) -- but you know how iffy relying on word resemblance can be..
>To say Hebrew was known is one thing, but to define how well known is =
another.=20
>In almost every port in the world one can find young boys who can =
speak five or
>more languages--but only well enough to make a buck off a tourist. =
Can you give
>me the references which are behind your statements, I could use them =
in my
>research. Also do you think that Hebrew was actually know well =
enough to
>influence Bible translations?
Surely, I said I had found very strong evidence that Hebrew was known. =
The OE translation of the first 50 psalms in BN 8824 of is a connotative =
translation, that is, they pick up and use both denotative and =
connotative meanings..=20
The Hebrew Psalm 23(22) is extremely sophisticated.It is written in a =
double envelope pattern and the lines are intricately linked. There is =
one sustained metaphor: God the shepherd. There are two conceptual =
domains: the surface domain is a lamb and the secondary domain is a =
naughty little boy... both creatures prone to get into trouble. There =
are 30 triggers in that little poem. The triggers switch back and forth =
between domains. If there are 5 possible meanings, the poet meant all =
five. The OE gets all 30 triggers and the connotative meanings. It is =
impossible to get all 30 triggers and the connotative meanings without a =
very deep knowledge of Hebrew -- and the cultural milieu.=20
Tables 10.1 and 10.2 on pages 172-173 of my book lay it all =
out...trigger by trigger on a Componential Analysis Matrix that lists =
possible translations, i.e. connotative meanings as well as denotative. =
So, yes, Hebrew was known well enough to influence Bible translations.=20
Then, David Howlett has shown that texts in Latin contain multilingual =
puns on Greek and Hebrew... there are acrostics that spell out Greek and =
Hebrew words, and so on. Physical evidence can be found in the =
pre-Rashi Hebrew alphabet written out and signed three times "Elizabeth" =
in Hebrew -- written right across the bottom of folio 117v (I think) of =
the OE Illustrated Hexateuch... in fact, it was Elizabeth that brought =
up the possibility that Hebrew was taught, and to girls, therefore, =
known....=20
(I'll have to dig through my boxes to find back a scan of the folio =
from the Hexateuch...Elizabeth showed up 14 years ago and I haven't =
looked at it in at least 13-14 years.)
The mtDNA reports add solid, scientific backing to the textual =
evidence for the presence of speakers of Greek, Hebrew, Phoenician, and =
Iberian on the Atlantic coasts of the British Isles. So does the =
shipwrec off of Devon; so do the Phoenician tin ingots found in a buried =
shipwreck at Falmouth back in the 1930's and which ingots are in the =
museum at Truro.
I'll send you a bib on Howlett and on the archaeological materials and =
see if I can find at least the name of the person working on the =
Arabic-Irish connection..
Regards
>V. K. Inman=20
Rochelle Altman
********************************************************************** =
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: =
[log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: =
[log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: =
leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report =
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[log in to unmask] For further information, visit =
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**********************************************************************
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can you give me the reference for the =
book of yours=20
you mention so I can go with interlibrary loan? I am not having =
any luck=20
searching in local libraries.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>DW</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [log in to unmask]
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Rochelle Altman</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
[log in to unmask]
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">MEDIEVAL-RELIGION@JISCMA=
IL.AC.UK</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, April 30, 2005 =
11:25=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [M-R] Subject:Re: =
[M-R] Fw:=20
[M-R] "the" Vulgate]</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval =
religion=20
and culture=20
<TABLE height=3D21 cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 width=3D2 =
bgColor=3D#d4d0c8=20
text=3D"#000000">
<TBODY>
<TR bgColor=3D#d4d0c8 text=3D"#000000">
<TD><BR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>V.K.</DIV><BR>
<DIV>[snip]</DIV><BR>
<DIV>>This relates to a problem I am working on--the influence of =
Arabic on=20
Western</DIV>
<DIV>>and in particular English literature. This mostly =
occurred=20
before the end of</DIV>
<DIV>>were at this time basically dialects of a bundle of related =
dialects=20
which</DIV>
<DIV>>could be designated a single language. They certainly =
differed=20
from each other</DIV>
<DIV>>no more that the current dialects of Arabic differ from each=20
other.<BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV>There was someone who was working on the Arabic connection -- oh, =
at=20
least 9-10 years ago... it was mentioned on Ansax. I'll dig through my =
files=20
and see if I can locate at least the name... I do recall the comment =
on Irish=20
Ollahm (memory man) and Arabic ollam (sp??) (prof. of law) -- but you =
know how=20
iffy relying on word resemblance can be..</DIV><BR>
<DIV>>To say Hebrew was known is one thing, but to define how well =
known is=20
another. </DIV>
<DIV>>In almost every port in the world one can find young boys who =
can=20
speak five or</DIV>
<DIV>>more languages--but only well enough to make a buck off a=20
tourist. Can you give</DIV>
<DIV>>me the references which are behind your statements, I could =
use them=20
in my</DIV>
<DIV>>research. Also do you think that Hebrew was actually =
know well=20
enough to</DIV>
<DIV>>influence Bible translations?</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Surely, I said I had found very strong evidence that Hebrew was =
known.=20
The OE translation of the first 50 psalms in BN 8824 of is a =
connotative=20
translation, that is, they pick up and use both denotative and =
connotative=20
meanings.. </DIV><BR>
<DIV>The Hebrew Psalm 23(22) is extremely sophisticated.It is written =
in a=20
double envelope pattern and the lines are intricately linked. There is =
one=20
sustained metaphor: God the shepherd. There are two conceptual =
domains: the=20
surface domain is a lamb and the secondary domain is a naughty little =
boy...=20
both creatures prone to get into trouble. There are 30 triggers in =
that little=20
poem. The triggers switch back and forth between domains. If there are =
5=20
possible meanings, the poet meant all five. The OE gets all 30 =
triggers and=20
the connotative meanings. It is impossible to get all 30 triggers and =
the=20
connotative meanings without a very deep knowledge of Hebrew -- and =
the=20
cultural milieu. </DIV><BR>
<DIV>Tables 10.1 and 10.2 on pages 172-173 of my book lay it all =
out...trigger=20
by trigger on a Componential Analysis Matrix that lists possible =
translations, i.e. connotative meanings as well as denotative. So, =
yes, Hebrew=20
was known well enough to influence Bible translations. </DIV><BR>
<DIV>Then, David Howlett has shown that texts in Latin contain =
multilingual=20
puns on Greek and Hebrew... there are acrostics that spell out Greek =
and=20
Hebrew words, and so on. Physical evidence can be found in the =
pre-Rashi=20
Hebrew alphabet written out and signed three times "Elizabeth" in =
Hebrew --=20
written right across the bottom of folio 117v (I think) of the =
OE=20
Illustrated Hexateuch... in fact, it was Elizabeth that brought up the =
possibility that Hebrew was taught, and to girls, therefore, known.... =
</DIV><BR>
<DIV>(I'll have to dig through my boxes to find back a scan of the =
folio from=20
the Hexateuch...Elizabeth showed up 14 years ago and I haven't looked =
at it in=20
at least 13-14 years.)</DIV><BR>
<DIV>The mtDNA reports add solid, scientific backing to the textual =
evidence=20
for the presence of speakers of Greek, Hebrew, Phoenician, and =
Iberian=20
on the Atlantic coasts of the British Isles. So does the shipwrec off =
of=20
Devon; so do the Phoenician tin ingots found in a buried shipwreck at =
Falmouth=20
back in the 1930's and which ingots are in the museum at =
Truro.</DIV><BR>
<DIV>I'll send you a bib on Howlett and on the archaeological =
materials and=20
see if I can find at least the name of the person working on the =
Arabic-Irish=20
connection..</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Regards</DIV><BR>
<DIV>>V. K. Inman </DIV><BR>
<DIV>Rochelle=20
=
Altman</DIV><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV>***************************=
*******************************************=20
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME =
to:=20
[log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to:=20
[log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: =
leave=20
medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report =
problems or=20
to contact the list's owners, write to:=20
[log in to unmask] For further information, =
visit our=20
web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html=20
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Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:59:45 +0100
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture <[log in to unmask]>
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From: John Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "the" Vulgate
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Rochelle Altman wrote:
>
> Some of George Joye's translations of 1530 and 1534 replace those of
> Coverdale's 1535 collation in the 1549 Book of Common Prayer. Is that
> what you are referring to?
Possibly. What I puzzle over is the change in the tenses of the English,
assuming the BCP Psalter really is from the Great Bible. See, for example,
Psalm 23 in Coverdale's 1535 version:
The LORDE is my shepherde, I can wante nothinge.
He fedeth me in a grene pasture, ad ledeth me to a fresh water.
He quickeneth my soule, & bringeth me forth in the waye of rightuousnes for
his names sake.
Though I shulde walke now in the valley of the shadowe of death, yet I feare
no euell, for thou art with me: thy staffe & thy shepehoke coforte me.
Thou preparest a table before me agaynst mine enemies: thou anoyntest my
heade with oyle, & fyllest my cuppe full.
Oh let thy louynge kyndnes & mercy folowe me all the dayes off my life, that
I maye dwell in the house off the LORDE for euer.
The BCP version has a more "modern" feel to the syntax (this is from a late
16th cent. BCP):
The Lord is my shepheard: therefore can I lacke nothing.
He shall feede me in a greene pasture: and leade me forth beside the waters
of comfort.
He shall conuert my soule: and bring me foorth in the pathes of righteousnes
for his names sake.
Yea though I walke thorowe the valley of the shadowe of death, I will feare
no euil: for thou art with me, thy rod and thy staffe comfort me.
Thou shalt prepare a table before mee against them that trouble mee: thou
hast anointed my heade with oyle, my cup shalbe full.
But thy louing kindnesse and mercie shall folowe me all the dayes of my
life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for euer.
The Geneva Bible version (which influenced the KJV reading) seems to build
on this, but also seems to revert to the syntax of 1535:
A Psalme of Dauid. The Lorde is my shephearde, I shall not want.
He maketh me to rest in greene pasture, and leadeth me by the still waters.
He restoreth my soule, and leadeth me in the paths of righteousnesse for his
Names sake.
Yea, though I should walke through the valley of the shadowe of death, I
will feare no euill: for thou art with me: thy rod and thy staffe, they
comfort me.
Thou doest prepare a table before me in the sight of mine aduersaries: thou
doest anoynt mine head with oyle, and my cuppe runneth ouer.
Doubtlesse kindnesse and mercie shall followe me all the dayes of my life,
and I shall remaine a long season in the house of the Lord.
> Then, Thomas Sternhold's Metrical Psalms also were published in
> 1549... I used to wonder about the Bay Psalm Book (typical English
> ridng rhyme)-- until I read Sternhold's...
It really takes off with Sternhold & Hopkins of 1583.
John Briggs
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Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:52:43 -0700
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From: Phyllis Jestice <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: saints of the day 1. May
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Today (1. May) is the feast day of:
Amator (d. 418) Amator's vita, which was written about 1-1/2
centuries after his death and is regarded as unreliable, tells that
A. was the son of an influential Auxerre family. He was betrothed
against his will, but at his wedding the celebrating bishop
"accidentally" (doubtless nudged by the Holy Spirit) read the rite
for ordination of a deacon instead of the wedding rite (?query: I
didn't know there *was* a wedding rite this early). A. convinced his
fiancee to give up the marriage idea---she became a nun; he became a
priest and later bishop of Auxerre. A. was a zealous missionary,
church-builder, and miracle worker.
Brioc (d. c. 510) Brioc (Brieuc) was from Britain, educated at
Auxerre after which he returned to Britain. There he worked
miracles, converted his parents, and eventually gathered 168 (!)
disciples and headed off to Brittany. He is credited with founding a
monastery near Treguier and the monastery later named Saint-Brieuc.
Sigismund of Burgundy (d. 524) Sigismund was the son of the Arian
Vandal ruler of Burgundy Gundebald. S. converted to the right brand
of Christianity, but remained a bit too vandalous for ecclesiastical
tastes---one day in a fit of rage he had his own son strangled.
Afterwards, S. was sorry and did a lot of penance, including many
gifts to churches. After being defeated in battle by the Franks, S.
escaped and went to be a hermit, but was found and executed.
Marculf (d. c. 558) Marculf (Marcoul) was born at Bayeux. He did
missionary work at Coutances, then became a hermit. He and his many
disciples ended up founding the monastery of Nanteuil.
Theodard of Narbonne (d. 893) As a young lawyer Theodard caught the
attention of Archbishop Sigebold of Narbonne. He became archdeacon,
and succeeded Sigebold as archbishop. T. did a great deal of
restoration after Muslim raids and sold church treasure and gave up
his own income to relieve a famine.
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Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 23:03:43 +0100
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
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From: John Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: saints of the day 1. May
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Phyllis Jestice wrote:
>
> Today (1. May) is the feast day of:
In the Sarum Calendar, Philip and James, an Inferior double feast, with
three lessons at Matins.
John Briggs
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Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 23:00:31 +0100
Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
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From: "Ms Brenda M. Cook" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: the Vulgate
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Does anyone have information about variations within the Vulgate version of
the Song of Songs?
In both the University of Chicago online Vulgate and in the "Nova Vulgata
Bibliorum Sacrorum" (1986), Songs 2:5 and 5:8 contain the phrase "amore
langueo."
Not sure how relevant this is but this phrase was clearly widely known in
the ME because IIRC there are at least three poems (14th 15th C) which have
this phrase ("Quia amore langueo") as a refrain. One I believe is a
monologue of Christ hanging on the cross; one is frankly sensual and the one
I have tracked down among my deeply disordered books begins "In a tabernacle
of a toure" and is a monologue by Our Lady showing herself as both Mother of
God and Mother of Mankind. Thus illustrating nicely the dual interpretation
of the SofS. (ref Davies: Mediaeval English Lyrics. Faber 1963 no. 62 - the
notes source at least 5 MSs)
BMC
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