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Hey, Doug, I hope your back is all right, since you slipped on the ice, as for the cough, well, does anyone _not_ have one in this cold? though actually it has been warmer and sunny, the snow comes back from time to time as it is today. Anyway thanks for the interesting posts, and to everyone else for the Hunter S. Thompson posts and the quotidian self etcetera. I don't know who the poet is, I used to like that quote of Kunitz's that 'the first job of the poet is to create the person who will write the poems' but I guess I've lost interest, the poet is just, it seems to me, someone who writes poems, along with dumping the trash, going into the basement to check the level in the oil tank, making green chili chili, while the kid says "ah mom, you're so boorrring!". But then perhaps I'm being flippant; I'm going on vacation tomorrow to Florida for the first time since I can't remember when, no work, no nothing, and the desk finally cleared, so perhaps I have premature sunstroke, but thanks for the interesting points, best, Rebecca ---- Original message ---- >Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:08:13 -0700 >From: Douglas Barbour <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: Re: Audience >To: [log in to unmask] > >Gee, I slip on the ice (& get a cough) & spend one day off this >machine, & something like this fascinating conversation gets going. I >liked Rebecca's response, & what tagged along with that, & I also agree >with what you're saying here, Alison. I never intended to suggest that >you might be writing down to that audience (especially you at 17!), but >that the kind of writing asked certain things of your that poetry might >not (or rather asked something else of you). But I think you point to >something very important when you speak of getting the grammar right in >the fiction (whereas I might work very hard to 'break' certain kinds of >grammar the way Pound spoke of breaking the pentameter, in poetry. In >other words, at least on one level, the morality of art (here of >writing) is the dedication to craft, to making sure the work is >'working.' > >Although, clearly, the choice by some to not write certain kinds of >events is also that (but might be taken as a craft choice on some level >too). > >So, yes, the audience is there, yet to write 'for' it in some >deliberate way may be to falsify the act of exploration that writING >is. Or in the act of writing the audience can only be some projection >of the self reading along at the same time....? > >Doug > > >On 19-Feb-05, at 3:20 PM, Alison Croggon wrote: > >> Hi Doug >> >> On 20/2/05 3:31 AM, "Douglas Barbour" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >>> But this leads back to how much you trust an audience, or what kind of >>> writing (& its audience) you find yourself exploring. Alison has a >>> very >>> different audience for her fantasy trilogy than for her poetry, >>> although in a few cases, me for instance, they overlap. And I suspect >>> she approaches the concept of audience & what kind of writing she >>> attempts for each in different ways as she takes up one or the other >>> (n0ot necessarily consciously). >> >> Quite consciously: I'm very aware that the fantasy series is _for_ an >> audience, and that I want that audience to be wide. This is (I >> realised >> with a certain surprise when I started writing this series) the first >> time >> the idea this has entered my thoughts in this way. I haven't found it >> diminishing; the reverse, rather, since it throws my other work into >> sharp >> relief. Its primary effect (and I expect this sounds ridiculously >> banal) is >> to make me increasingly aware of getting my grammar right, so whatever >> I >> write is absolutely clear. Getting pronouns/nouns invisibly >> unambiguous >> when, for example, I had three male characters in the same scene, >> nearly >> drove me mad in the last book. Also, there are places - extreme sexual >> violence, say - where I will not go. >> >> This kind of links up with what Richard was saying, about what it >> means to >> write for an audience. I spent a couple of hours with Josh the other >> night >> going through a short story he had written (my kids are very demanding >> in >> employing us as a on-site creative writing teachers). I only ever ask >> questions about what he meant, and talk about the grammar: if he gets >> the >> grammar right, other people will be able to read and understand it, >> which is >> what he wants. The process of getting him to understand that, to be >> precise >> and to read every word, since people don't usually have ESP, is >> actually >> quite interesting. The rest is up to him. >> >> On the other hand, my audience is always myself, even with the fantasy >> series, when it's me at around 17; I write the kinds of things, I >> suspect >> without exception, that I like to read. I write poetry (when I do) for >> reasons that aren't entirely clear to me, and I can't imagine >> concretely who >> might read it, apart from a few friends; the best metaphor I know for >> that >> is Celan's "message in a bottle". Most of the time I don't think about >> audience at all, since it's impossible to know what it is. >> >> I remember working on an experimental theatre piece with a performer >> when >> the director raised the question and my collaborator looked up with a >> very >> dark expression and said, Fuck the audience. In many circumstances, >> that >> attitude is the only way to respect the audience. I have always been >> troubled by the pandering to an audience, to the idea that an audience >> means >> that work ought to be shaped in certain standardised ways. You get >> that in >> extreme ways in the film industry. These are actually formal questions, >> although they're usually disguised as "market" expectations, and >> usually >> they're pretty fatal to any art. >> >> Best >> >> A >> >> Alison Croggon >> >> Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com >> Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au >> Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com >> >> > > >Douglas Barbour >Department of English >University of Alberta >Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 Canada >(780) 436 3320 >http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/dbhome.htm > >Reserved books. Reserved land. Reserved flight. >And still property is theft. > > Phyllis Webb