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my grateful thanks, MJ (sorry, don't know your first name). i'll die, surely, of profound ignorance and semi-tolerance, but somewhere within's a glimmer that Truth'll be made known to me, and that i'll recognize it. you've awakened that glimmer and awareness, thanks be to God. judy > From: MJ Walker <[log in to unmask]> > Date: 2005/12/11 Sun AM 08:50:09 EST > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Poem/Play (was Re: Pinter on Blair et al.) > > There is a longstanding debate about Seneca's practice & intentions with > his plays. I believe more advanced theories support full-scale > theatrical production during Nero's reign. Certainly the "progeny" of > his drama, meaning Elizabethan tragedy, was generally meant for > performance. The renewal of Senecan tragedy in English in the last > century began with the very successful Peter Brook/Ted Hughes production > with Gielgud & Worth - a great loss that it was never filmed. If Peer > Gynt was only meant for reading, why did Ibsen then bother to get Grieg > to compose the music for theatrical production? He understood that > poetry and music go together well in the theatre - and reading can never > supply that frisson. Flecker's The Golden Road to Samarkand, to cite a > similar example, perhaps Britain's reply to the Theatre of Cruelty avant > la lettre, had a very successful production in 1923 with the > unforgettable music of Delius. As for Faust, it was, has been and is > performed quite regularly in German-speaking countries (as is Madach's > Tragedy of Man in Hungary & elsewhere). Try to see Peter Stein's amazing > production (there must be a video, I taped it off the TV) with Bruno > Ganz et al (two Fausts, two Mephistos). > mj > > Knut Mork Skagen wrote: > > >> There is a dimension of the theatrical performance of a text, though, > >> that creates a third consciousness (that is, one besides the > >> audience-as-audience and the performer-as-performer), even in fairly > >> traditional dramatic texts like my own, which are constructed with > >> plot and character and all that stuff we've come to expect from a > >> night out at the local playhouse. If I can be permitted an example > >> from my recent play "In Public": a character in the second scene is > >> sitting at a bar, flirting casually with a colleague, when she comes > >> up with this monologue: > >> > > > > I immediately think of two things when I read your examples and your > > explanation of this extra dimension. The one of them you describe with > > "spoken by the same actress within a 15 or 20 minute period" -- > > stating the obvious, drama, unlike poetry, is a time-based artform. > > Lyric poetry is perhaps the least time-based form of literature, which > > strengthens its role as object-on-the-page. It exists, in a sense, > > without a proper beginning, end, or sense of time having passed. > > > > I also think of how a dramatic text is meant to be inhabited and > > embodied by a performer -- mentioned earlier in this thread -- and it > > seems to me critical to that the performer is not performing his or > > her own words but those of a "character." (Character, of course, in > > the broadest possible sense, given that less traditional drama won't > > have such precise divisions). But still, the performative context of > > a text is automatically a fictitious context. Even in performance art > > where the performer is the writer is the character, the act of staging > > produces an artificiality which enhances the impact of portions of the > > text while reducing others. > > > > Contemporary lyric poetry isn't anywhere close to being staged, on the > > contrary, it's often passed off as the opposite, some kind of "direct > > communication." This may well be illusory, but is often an underlying > > assumption on the part of the reader. > > > > There is a crossing somewhere. As drama approaches the purely literary > > is enters the unperformable realm. Norway's own "national play" Peer > > Gynt is meant to be read rather than staged; Goethe's Faustus; > > Seneca's plays. And on the poetry end of things there is the point > > where lyric crosses over into epic. > > > > --Knut > > > > -- > M.J.Walker - no blog - no webpage - no idea > > Nous ne faisons que nous entregloser. - Montaigne >