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Dear Ken and Johann Thanks for the responses. No supervision or, self supervision and phd student shelters are just some spring ideas that open up and compliment the discussion on 'good supervision'. As I said, i fully endorse improving supervision, but no matter how well this community better supervison in general, there will always be bad supervisors and bad supervision. What can students do in those situations? And how might us, the community, do to help those students? still i think, inadequate supervision is closer to bad supervision than to no supervision. to me, no supervision is a thinkable option for some students. I was told, officially in germany, one can still do/get a phd without a supervisor, and without registration in the university, although this is uncommonly done. All one needs to do is to submit a thesis and defend it in front of a university assigned committee. About student shelters, i might have been chosen a wrong analogy. (i didn't mean it as a real shelter from abuse, although not unthinkable). perhaps a better analogy is some community center where students can find support. for me, this phd list has been an excellent community center for my own particular growth. i can imagine some list centering much more around the students. i remember some time ago, there was a thread asking students to talk about their research. i think that is a great example of what a community center can do. Rosan