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Margarida And if my style is rooted in my own disabiity what would you have me do? -----Original Message----- From: Margarida Dolan [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 5:20 AM To: Discussion list for disabled students and their support staff.; Lissner, Scott Cc: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Lecture notes in advance Dear Scott, As I am preparing for a lecture I am giving in 2h time, I find relevant to respond to your email. You say: > most of the classes I teach are discussion based and interactive. So are mine, and the discussions are "guided discussions" not discussions about whatever we feel like discussing. >While there are points I know I want to make I can rarely predict how I >am going to make them and if I provided notes in advance they are as >likely to be misleading as helpful. I really cannot see how you can justify this. As I prepare any lecture, I prepare its context, I revise important past authors and new perspectives by recent authors; who is in favour/against of what is said, and how I position myself within the field of knowledge, and how my opinions evolved. I enable students to challenge and add to these perspective, and to analyse each others contributions. And I prepare materials, including PowerPoint/acetates/notes. If a student brings into the discussion something new, or if I remember something interesting I have not anticipated, I will suggest they complete the notes, and ask them to email me to send further info. >I often encourage students to put their pencils and paper down and >actively listen and be engaged in the conversation rather than take >dictation. I do work out post lecture notes in some cases. Just to tell you about my own learning needs when I was an undergraduate- I needed to write notes or do drawings as a means to engage in what was being said. Writing and chewing pens might increase the activity of the motor cortex, and generally increase the activity of the brain and can support some individuals to pay attention. If I was to perceive that a lecturer was encouraging the students to put the pencils down, I would probaly also put my pencil down as I would not want to look different- and as a result I might switch off, and feel really stressed that the lecturer might ask me to contribute to the discussion. > All that said the underlying question is if a student can not get > notes because a lecturer does not teach from notes can you reasonable > expect them to change their style when except for the access issue no > one else would? The answer to your question is in the DDA and DED. It is not up to us lecturers to decide what the needs of the students are, based on what are needs are. I hope this informs the debate, ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- Margarida Dolan PhD Phone: 0044(0)1225 383241 Learning Support Tutor and Staff Developer Fax: 0044(0)1225 386709 Learning Support Service University of Bath Claverton Down, Bath BA2 7AY, UK ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- The views and comments expressed in this email are confidential to the recipients and should not be passed on to others without permission. This email message does not necessarily express the views of the University of Bath and should be considered personal unless there is a specific statement to the contrary. Quoting "Lissner, Scott" <[log in to unmask]>: > I don't want to make this a back and forth about Scott. I > occasionally teach statistics and there advance notes are indeed > critical to me (or the problems won't solve right) and helpful to all > of the students. In those types of classes I do create and provide > notes. On the other hand most of the classes I teach are discussion > based and interactive. While there are points I know I want to make I > can rarely predict how I am going to make them and if I provided notes > in advance they are as likely to be misleading as helpful. I often > encourage students to put their pencils and paper down and actively > listen and be engaged in the conversation rather than take dictation. > I do work out post lecture notes in some cases. > > All that said the underlying question is if a student can not get > notes because a lecturer does not teach from notes can you reasonable > expect them to change their style when except for the access issue no > one else would? > > > > > L. Scott Lissner, ADA Coordinator > Office Of The Provost > > 292-6207(v); 688-8605(tty); 688-3665(fax) HTTP://ADA.OSU.EDU > > -----Original Message----- > From: Discussion list for disabled students and their support staff. > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of KC Thomas, Centre for > Access and Communication Studies > Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 4:49 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Lecture notes in advance > > In response to Scott's email I would just query: > Whether the lecturer is truly writing the notes the night before or > just wanting to avoid the responsibility for earlier preparation and > circulation of notes, however brief > > If so, I would guess the lecturer in question would also want to avoid > 'advance time needed for conversation'. > > Finally, Scott writes that his 'lecture style that has been successful > for the last 20 plus years' - while not doubting this or Scott's > professionalism, I would just ask - successful for whom? Student > profiles have changed enormously in 20 years and as practitioners we > need to be learners too and develop our practices to create the most > successful learning experiences for all our students. > > > > --On 15 November 2005 12:14 -0500 "Lissner, Scott" <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > > I am writing from the US and am only passingly familiar the DDA, > > SENDA > > > and the Code of Practice but it is a familiar issue and I have some > > practical thoughts that might be helpful and some conceptual musings. > > > > If the lecturer is truly writing notes the night before then my > > guess is that he or she is not typically giving copies to students > > to read but may be putting some notes on the board during the > > lecture and that > > > is what the student will be missing. If this is the case than the > > only > > > advance time needed is for conversion and if the Lecturer can e-mail > > a > > > digital copy that could be printed out in Braille or read with > > adaptive technology this student would be as prepared as everyone > else. > > > > There are lecturers, myself included, that do not lecture from > > meaningful notes. I will have jotted an occasional name few key > > figures or dates and sometimes a topic or two but I rarely have notes. > > > Would it be reasonable to ask me to change a lecture style that has > been > > successful for the last 20 plus years? If I put some facts and > figures > > on the board I would need to verbalize them and arranging a > > scribe/note taker for the student might make sense but not providing > > notes where none exist. > > > > The conundrum is trying to determine if what the lecturer is > > presenting about their creation and use of lecture notes is true or > > a pretext for discrimination. > > > > > > > > L. Scott Lissner, ADA Coordinator > > Office Of The Provost, The Ohio State University 292-6207(v); > > 688-8605(tty); 688-3665(fax) HTTP://ADA.OSU.EDU > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Discussion list for disabled students and their support staff. > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jackson, Elizabeth > > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 11:56 AM > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: Lecture notes in advance > > > > Hi Kate > > > > If the student is blind or partially sighted (B or PS) and only > > given the notes on the day of the lesson they will not have the same > > rights of access as their sighted peers and, therefore, not be > > included in the lesson - it's the same as giving a B or PS learner > > the handouts in > > > lesson, asking them to read it and then discuss with the rest of the > > group. This is, ultimately, excluding the B or PS learner from > > participating, which is then seen as discrimination! > > > > Is the first time the lecturer has ever delivered the course, then I > > can understand that they may have anything prepared, although this > > is a little unusual. If the lecturer has delivered the course > > before, then there is no excuse for not having handouts or resources prepared! > > > > Regards > > > > Liz Jackson > > Acting Regional Manager > > Royal National Institute of the Blind London & South East Regional > > Services > > 0207 391 2138 / 07789812230 > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Discussion list for disabled students and their support staff. > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Katy Mann > > Sent: 15 November 2005 16:27 > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Lecture notes in advance > > > > We have a lecturer who is claiming they cannot provide lecture notes > > in advance for students with disabilities as they only prepare the > > lecture the night before and therefore should not be expected to do > > so. My feeling is that, with consideration to the current > > legislation, > > > and in terms of encouraging good practice, that this contravenes the > > notion of a 'reasonable adjustment' > > > > I could find no specific examples that relate directly to this > > within the Code of Practice but would appreciate any advice/ > > feedback from anyone else who has encountered this problem. How did > > you deal with > it? > > > > Many Thanks > > > > Katy > > Katy Mann > > Disability Adviser > > West End sites > > Room CG80, Chiltern Building > > University of Westminster > > 35 Marylebone Road > > London NW1 5LS > > > > -- > > DISCLAIMER: > > > > NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments > > is > > > confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended > > recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of > > the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify > > the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to > > delete it and any attachments from your system. > > > > RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated > > by > > > its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it > > cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. > > We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. > > > > Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email > > and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily > > represent those of RNIB. > > > > RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 > > > > Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk > > > > ---------------------- > KC Thomas, > Organising Tutor: Personal Support Worker Training 2005 Project > Co-ordinator: Employment Scene 2005-6 Centre for Access and > Communication Studies, University of Bristol [log in to unmask] > 0117 954 5718 >