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Dear Edgar, Thank you for your posts I've found them really interesting! Errors also offer some insights into skill. Its fascinating (for me anyways!) that humans are capable of thinking exactly about what they are doing, and sometimes improve their performance as a result - even when their thinking and their real time perceptions are completely in error. An example of this is steering a bicycle or motorcycle. To turn left, one 'turns' the handlebars to the right and vice versa. Almost everyone, regardless of skill will report the opposite even as their skill at riding is improving as a result of a model that is the exact opposite of what is happening. I welcome your thoughts on this! There is a lesson here for design research perhaps because designers (and researchers) also report self perceptions and reflections differently from reality. Phil Sargent once commented it was a mistake for designers to assume they are the experts in design research - they are the subject of study. A hard line! Best wishes, Terry ____________________ Dr. Terence Love Curtin Research Fellow Design-focused Research Group Dept of Design, Curtin University PO Box U1987, Perth, Western Australia 6845 Tel/Fax +61(0)8 9305 7629 (home office) +61 (0)8 9266 4018 (university office) [log in to unmask] ____________________ Visiting Research Fellow Institute of Entrepreneurship and Enterprise Development Management School, Lancaster University Lancaster, UK [log in to unmask] ____________________ Conselho Cientifico UNIDCOM IADE, Lisboa Portugal ____________________ -----Original Message----- From: edgar koyis Sent: 17/08/2005 12:11 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Intention argument and the Diving Analogy Hi Jason et al, For many human activities (maybe not for all the examples you were thinking about), the 'unconscious competence' you talk about is the cerebellum taking over. The most experienced (I stress 'experienced') people develop the ability to perform to a point where they do not have to 'think'. A tennis player just 'knows' where the ball has to get, and the cerebellum makes sure the body movements are the right ones to make the ball get to the side line, for example. I am not sure what the deal is for a person who learns very quickly how to perform well an activity (designing, diving, drawing, etc). Maybe it's just that, a quality to learn much quicker than the others a particular activity. But this performance of the cerebellum just arrives after a lot of practice. That cerebellum activity we all experience constantly, for example when walking. Even though we don't 'think' to walk, we are still able to explain in words or drawings or many other media, how we do it. In the same way, the diver can explain how he or she fixed the dive in the air. Probably it was the cerebellum fixing the dive, but the diver knows what happened. Now that we talk about it, the many hours of practice for divers have the main purpose to make the cerebellum take over and perform the dive. For these cases, the cerebellum will do a much better job than the 'conscious' brain. I remember reading messages in this list from people well informed in neurology. Such people could maybe offer a better explanation? best wishes edgrrr ps. Has anybody found a student wishing to give up design and change to diving? On 8/16/05, Jason Foster <[log in to unmask] > wrote: > There are some moments or events in which divers engage in > activities that I would call 'designing', without doubt. For > example when they analyse the raw materials (positions that their > bodies can achieve, what the oponents do, what judges look for, > etc) and come up with ways to put all those together in particular > dives. Another example, when they are in the air and something went > wrong (eg. leaning slightly to the right), they have to come up > with a solution to fix the problem and improve the dive. This > happens in a fraction of a second, but believe me, it's a conscious > thought that analyses the problem, finds a solution and puts it in > practice with the skills and elements available. There are more > examples like that within the diving process, but it does not mean > that 'diving' is 'designing' Out of curiosity, do you think that a diver who "fixed" their dive could explain, in words, pictures, gestures, etc., how they implemented their fix? What I think I'm driving towards is the idea that an accomplished diver has reached the stage of "unconscious competence" in that they don't have to consciously work on each aspect of their dive but can act in what appears to be an instinctive manner. However when pressed they can adopt "conscious competence" and share their expertise. What I'm very interested in pursuing is the notion that a "gifted amateur" can be distinguished from a "practiced professional" in that the amateur cannot "drop down" from unconscious competence to conscious competence, whereas the professional is able to do so. Thanks for the interesting discussion of diving. Jason -- edgar rodriguez industrial designer, phd candidate school of design, victoria university of wellington new zealand User Driven Sensing, Corporate Design Center, Samsung Electronics, Seoul, South Korea mobile: +82 (0) 10 5780 2228 office: +82 (0)2 750 9231