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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture THe operative word here is born, not conceived, that is, the claim is that John was sanctified after conception but before birth, extending or intensifying, perhaps, the notion that prophets are prepared by God for their mission already in the womb (e.g., Jeremiah ch. 1?). Sanctification would be removal of original sin--baptism sanctifies, makes holy, washes away original (and actual sin if present). I don't know the history of this claim for John the Baptist but it would certainly be based on the account of the VIsitation in Lk. 2: If the child leapt in the womb as a sign of recognizing the presence of his Redeemer in Mary's womb, then he could hardly have been in a state of unrighteousness (lack of original righteousnes), could hardly have been in a state of original sin. Before anyone remonstrates that original sin was not on the horizon until Cyprian or Augustine, fine, just drop the word _original sin_ and substitute whatever language you prefer to describe the state in which we enter the world and the condition from which baptism (in-womb sanctification, in this case) frees us--a state that in some sense is short of holiness; from that John the Baptist must have been free if he could recognize Christ in Mary's womb. Dennis Martin >>> [log in to unmask] 09/28/04 8:13 AM >>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture John the Baptist was born without original sin? When does this idea start circulating? Meg ________________________________ From: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture on behalf of Ann Ball Sent: ūri. 28.9.2004 09:06 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [M-R] St John's Eve medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture It was believed that John the Baptist was born without original sin and "accordingly, the Church celebrates his naturl birth by a festival of his `nativity' assigned exaqctly dix months before the natvity of Christ... As soon as the fast of Christas was established on December 25 (in the 5th century) the dat of the Baptist's birth was assigned to June 24" Francis X. Weiser, in his Handbook of Christian Feasts and Customs has about two pages on this with quite a bibliography which might give you more leads. This book is long out of print, but it is a short section and if you will send me your fax off list I will be happy to xerox and fax them to you. He may also have extended his remarks in his book of saints. Ann Ball Houston ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html