medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
John Briggs, John Wickstrom, what the difference? ;-)))))))
With apologies to both for my confusion! And thanks to John Dillon's archival proclivities.
MG
-- John Dillon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
For further clarifications/queries, see intercalations below. Best, John Dillon
----- Original Message -----
From: John Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Monday, September 6, 2004 5:34 pm
Subject: Re: saints of the day 3. September
> Just to clarify: the translation is the removal of a saint's body
or bodily remains -- in some case, "body" may imply rather more than what's actuall;y present.
> from one
> place to another (normally with papal permission!). It usually
> means from
> the original grave
"usually" here could do with some further specification. In Italy, at least, there have been many translations _not_ from the original grave. Gregory the Great, the subject of this particular thread, is said to have experienced this more than once.
to a shrine (at, near, or behind the high
> altar).
Again, in Italy at least, there are numerous instances where "at" the high altar does not imply a shrine other than the altar itself.
The
> feast thus usually commemorates the canonisation.
A major exception occurs in the case of saints who were not canonized at the time of a translation (mostly, pre-canonization saints -- of whom, again, there are a great many in Italy --; also, saints with confirmed cults but only later canonized -- e.g., Humility of Faenza).
Has Gregory the Great been canonized? If not, it's difficult to see how any of his translations at St. Peter's could commemorate his canonization.
> Gregory appears in the Book of Common Prayer on 12 March
> ("Gregorius Mag.,
> Bp of Rome & Conf.").
It's nice to see the C. of E. maintaining G.'s original feast day.
According to John Wickstrom (earlier of the two posts included below), the present practice -- of the church of Rome, at any rate -- of celebrating G.'s feast day on 3. September commemorates his traditional translation feast. Does anyone know which of G.'s several translations took place on this day?
> John B. Dillon wrote:
> >
> > Possibly to another location in St. Peter's on the Vatican. A
> > translation can occur within the same building. Greg has had
> several of
> > these; the last, one reads, occurred in 1606. To compare great
> things> with small, that was also the year in which Lidanus of
> Sezze's remains
> > were formally translated from their previous resting spot in Sezze's
> > cathedral to that building's new high altar.
> >
> > As Phyllis observed in her initial posting, 3 September 590 is
> the date
> > of Gregory's consecration as pope. Perhaps one of his
> translations was
> > timed to commemorate that event.
> >
> > Best,
> > John Dillon
> >
> > John B. Wickstrom wrote:
> >> Well, no. A "translatio" marks the transferal of the saint's
> body from
> >> one place to another (see P. Geary, _Furta Sacra_ for a wonderful
> >> study of "stealing" saints' bodies). <snip> So my question
> was, where
> >> was Gregory's body taken that is celebrated on Sept. 3?
> >> jw
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Marjorie Greene
> >>> Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 2:04 AM
> > <snip>
> >>> See: http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintg02.htm
> >>> According to this website, 3 Sept is the date of Greg's
> >>> ascension to the papal throne. He was born and died at Rome.
> >>> If I understand your question and the word "translation," the
> >>> answer is Rome.
> >>> MG
> >>>
> >>> -- John Wickstrom <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > <snip>
> >>> Gregory the Great joins the long line of saints deprived from
> >>> their centuries-long enjoyment of another feast day, in this
> >>> case, March 12th, too far along in Lent probably to satisfy
> >>> Martimort et al. As with others, the new date is the
> >>> traditional translation feast. Doest anyone know whence
> >>> Gregory's translatio?
> >>> John W.
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> >>> [[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Phyllis Jestice
> >>> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 10:41 PM
> > <snip>
> >>> Today (3. September) is the feast day of:
> > <snip>
> >>> Gregory the Great (d. 604) One of the very few popes to win
> >>> the soubriquet "the great" (I can only think of Leo I and,
> >>> with somewhat less justice, Nicholas I), Gregory was the last
> >>> of the four fathers of the Latin church. He was a wealthy
> >>> Roman patrician who served as prefect of the city before
> >>> converting his home into a monastery and becoming a monk. He
> >>> was soon drafted into papal service, and in 590, much against
> >>> his will, was elected pope---consecrated on this day in 590.
> >>> He proved to be a splendid pontiff---a great diplomat, a
> >>> painstaking administrator, a good pastor, and even a great
> theologian.>>> <snip>
>
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