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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Thanks again, Rochelle. Some may find this correspondence TANnish, but it bears on a couple of matters of popular religion, medieval as well as ancient and modern. That said, herewith some reservations about your response. On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 12:47:15 -0300 "Rochelle I. Altman" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Yes, arch-construction was used by the Romans -- a >different shape of arch, broader and flatter and not used on religious >buildings. Romans also used a narrower arch. Here are two examples (entrance; rear statuary niche) from a second-century CE religious building: http://www.schule.suedtirol.it/gs-stulrich/comenius_nav/schuelerarbeiten/Peldes09.05.00/geschichte.htm The fact that this shrine served the Romanized form of Isis-worship makes the building no less Roman and no less religious. Smallish shrines of this general sort were widespread in the Roman world. I wonder what impact they may have had on the design of smallish early Christian and medieval Christian shrines in areas where they were still around to be seen. >..., the high rounded arch atop a narrow column is not Egyptian, >Greek, Cretan, or Roman in concept; it is Sumerian and North Semitic. >Interpretations of the arch were used throughout the North, North-central, >and North-West Semitic areas. The precise shape of a narrow, straight-sided >column topped by high round arch does not appear elsewhere in the Imperial >domains until until after the advent of Christianity. Like the scriptures, >on which the shape was so frequently drawn, the shape was spread to the West >by the early Christians. So the rounded-arch lararium I showed in the previous post is not narrow enough to be an example of the sort of statuary niche you're talking about (regardless of _whose_ icons are placed inside)? Here's another view of it (left-hand column, about a quarter of the way down the page): http://www.marketplace.it/pompeiruins/cmen.htm Here's another rounded-arch lararium, this time from Ostia: http://roma2.desdeinter.net/ostia025.html Perhaps the column is insufficiently narrow and the arch insufficiently high for it to be an example of what you're talking about. But if _is_ that sort of arch, I'm not sure that its appearance here is due to specifically Christian influence. It seems to me more likely to be a Roman domestic appropriation of a common Hellenistic form. [quoting me:] >>Lararia contained statuettes of one's Lares and other divinities and >>typically took the form of small temples (edicules); these were often >>pedimented rectangular structures "in the round". In modest homes, >>though, the edicular lararium was often a rectangular pedimented niche. >>That to me is a statuary niche. The form of the edicule is Hellenistic >>and surely has ANE antecedents. But were its earliest Roman predecessors >>necessarily also ANE-derived? If so, how do we know this? > >Well, isn't that the "pagan" Roman statuary niche? Then, most Hellenistic >concepts derive from the Eastern side of the ANE -- Greek lit scholars now >take it for granted. Even the maths are from Old Babylon... Well, it's _a_ "pagan" Roman statuary niche (there are several forms, one of which, regardless of its ancestry, is clearly arched and rounded). And I don't understand the point of your question: were you expecting me to anticipate the distinction -- not drawn in your previous post -- between "pagan" and Christian statuary niches? I was responding, remember, to an undifferentiated comment about "the 'statuary niche'". Again, that many Hellenistic concepts derive from the ANE is a given (at least to me as a trained classicist) and was, I had thought, implied in my wording quoted above (i.e., "and surely has ANE antecedents"). What most interests me in this matter of statuary niches is the appropriation of recognizably ancient forms in medieval and early modern Christian "popular" religion. An instance discussed previously on this list is the pictorial votive tablet, which in Italy gets a new lease on life in the fifteenth century and which is still vibrantly with us today. Another is the small votive shrine or niche (in Italy commonly called an "edicola" even though its usually not free-standing). Here is a bunch of Sicilian examples: http://www.bronteinsieme.it/BrIns_en/1mo_en/ce_sto3_en.html Many of the rounded-arch instances given here strike me as very similar in form to the lararium for Ostia cited above. Note also the "classicizing" pedimented instances. Perhaps I'm being naive, but it strikes me that here, just as in the Roman "tempietto" of Isis-Fortuna cited above, we have round-arched forms and angular, pedimented forms side by side as two different aesthetic alternatives and that neither is more specifically Christian in application than the other. Best again, John Dillon PS: As we have been discussing Eastern influences, it may be worth noting that the round-arched niche may be found even in Pickering: http://www.norman-world.com/angleterre/Patrimoine_architectural/Angleterre/Castles/pickering/picker5.htm Not, as far, as I can tell, a _statuary_ niche, however. ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html